On Heroic vs regular level 80 loot

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Postby Euphoria » Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:23 pm

There are 10 MILLION people that play this game. Maybe 500k have ever seen Illidan.

I'm all about the other 9.5 million having an alternate path to get gear and keep the game interesting.

Blizzard would have to be completely retarded to not cater to that 9.5 million. Blizzard is not completely retarded. Therefore the 9.5 million "casuals" out there will have 10 man instances to run. The hardcore people can go raid their 25 person instances. Life is happy.


Now quit flaming each other and get back on topic :)
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Postby cougarr » Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:28 pm

I could of sworn I typed in the maintankadin URL..... so how did I end up at the wow general forum?.....
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Postby lusisia » Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:30 pm

Dorvan wrote:I must've missed the part where 25 man raiding is no longer a big part of WotLK....all they're doing is providing more options for people who don't want to do 25 mans raids while continuing the 25 man raid progression that existed in TBC....who loses here?


Same here. I'm a 10-man guy myself (loaded statement, I know).

The question I have to ask is "Why do you raid?"

If it's to see the content (me) - then now I get to see MORE content because it's available in a 10-man version.

If it's for shiny baubles then can get the bigger and shinier baubles in the 25-man version.

I have to admit, I've tried to avoid this thread because a large number of people seem are being very elitist and arrogant.

The introduction of 10-man raids, badge gear and pvp epics has done absolutely NOTHING to diminish the accomplishments of people doing 25-man content. It's akin to people somehow claiming that homosexual marriage somehow "threatens" the sanctity of marriage.

Just because I wear Inscribed Legplates of the Aldor and Tankatronic Goggles doesn't mean that the value of your (not you specifically, Dorvan) Helm of Uther's Resolve or Judicator's Legguards has somehow been diminished.

At the same time, it doesn't somehow mean that you are better than me. Not everyone is a student who gets a summer break or a reduction in class load or has the ability to raid 5-nights a week or has the ability to work with 25 regular players to do content.
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Postby Tev » Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:32 pm

Dorvan wrote:....but if the 17-20 people would rather be raiding 10 mans than 25 mans, aren't they a lot happier with the change vs. 5-8 of you that like the current system?

That's the thing with this argument, it comes down to "I don't like Blizzard adding this other playstyle choice because then people won't be forced into a playstyle they don't like as much to support my preference". Also, if this is a common phenomena, there will be other groups of 5-8 people out there looking for a 25 man guild and a stronger guild will emerge because of it full of people who actually *want* to be there, so in the long run even the "hardcore 25 man" people benefit.

And finally, it's naive to think that there wouldn't be significant shake ups in the guild roster even without 10 mans becoming more prominent. Expansions are a good time to take inventory: people decide to leave the game, or go for a more casual guild, or a more hardcore guild....a lot of reshuffling happens of the server, and ultimately people are in places that better match where they and the guild and now instead of where they were 18 months ago. It's a healthy process.

Of course 25man is a big part, but its suffered some pains, due to easily obtainable geared acquired from other sources. Expanding those alternate means to progression may hurt or may help. I don't pretend to see the future, just expression concerns I have and a pattern I seem to see.


As the first part of my post indicates, removing people who don't care about 25 man raiding and only want loot is really a good thing for those who like 25 man raiding in the long run, I'm not sure how one would see it otherwise.


This is great for 25 man raids. I don't know about the rest of you, but I've seen way too many people who either got what they wanted then left us short handed when "RL issues" prevented them from playing during raid times (which went away when new content came surprisingly). Or the people who get geared up, then apply to a guild farther along in progression.

I'm looking forward to WotLK from a raiding standpoint for the fact that I'm hoping it'll weed out the leeches and I'll be able to raid with people who want to seriously have fun.
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Postby Macha » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:00 pm

Lets say 10mans and 25mans have almost similar loot, the 25mans being slightly better than 10mans.

Who loses?
-guilds that have people who are there for easy epics. For these people, the 10man is a better way to get loot

Who wins?
-almost every player on every server. 10man raiders for better loot and the ability to move to the 25man easier if they chose to increase their raiding times, 25mans because they are left with the reliable players


Let's say 10mans and 25mans have vastly different loot, the 25mans being FAR better than 10mans

Who loses?
-most of the playerbase, who either lack progression, are gimped in most parts of the game, or cannot switch to 25mans if they want to raid more hardcore(they'd have to raid the 25man version of the 10man AGAIN to get the gear needed for the next instance, which would be terrible design)

Who wins?
-guilds who depend on people raiding only for epics, not because they have fun.


Situation A is infinitely preferable to everyone, including raiders. At first, some raiding guilds will have issues and will have to weed out people. But then, the only ones remaining are these who really want to be there.
No more "rl issues". No more people who afk because they don't really like what is up. No more massive emo. No more pent up anger.

It's WIN for us 25man raiders. And seriously, who cares of Joe 10man raider has gear almost as good as ours, or as good? We know we did the hard thing - we'll even have the archivements to show. If the only reason we care for loot is to show off to others how great we are, then we'd be really pathetic people.

It's not about showing it to others. It's about doing it yourself and managing it the hard way.
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:02 pm

Dorvan wrote:
I agree with this. Karazhan gear should have been blue, and Naxx10 gear probably should be, too. Really, anything puggable should be blue.


Things that should drop only blue loot on Proudmoore:

Gruul's Lair
Magtheridon
1/4 TK
at least 2/6 SSC
at least 2/5 Hyjal
3/9 BT
Sunwell Trash

:P


Eh, that quote was from me, and I'd pretty much agree with your list if you kept the old attunements in... and made Sunwell trash not so farmable.
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:09 pm

Euphoria wrote:There are 10 MILLION people that play this game. Maybe 500k have ever seen Illidan.

I'm all about the other 9.5 million having an alternate path to get gear and keep the game interesting.

Blizzard would have to be completely retarded to not cater to that 9.5 million. Blizzard is not completely retarded. Therefore the 9.5 million "casuals" out there will have 10 man instances to run. The hardcore people can go raid their 25 person instances. Life is happy.


Now quit flaming each other and get back on topic :)


This is a bad argument. In order for the majority of people to fight Illidan, he'd have to be a quest mob. A soloable quest mob. Also, 9.5 million people aren't going to be in ten man instances seeing Arthas. How many "ten man" guilds see Zul'jin? We get back to the question, "Where do you draw the line?" Should Illidan be able to be defeated by the majority of the 10 million players? Should he be the pinnacle of the raid experience, and the end of a difficult raiding system? Or will the raiders be happy with fighting "Captain Placeholder," having solo'd Illidan months ago when they were level 69?
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Postby Karock » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:10 pm

Sorry for not being on topic =P

I hope no one has felt that I was attacking them or their guild, I didn't mean anything I said in that way. Rather I was simply saying there was no huge difference between them and other people except in what route they chose to pursue the game.

I just have strong feelings against the idea that others should be disadvantaged compared to others because of how they enjoy playing World of Warcraft.

More on topic to the OP, I hope that they reevaluate heroic loot near when wotlk is going live so that it isn't more than half poorly itemized for it's intended classes like our current heroics so that people can use them as a stepping stone into 10 and 25 man raids (or into whatever other areas they choose to pursue). But honestly I would rather the blues from heroics not be drastically different than the blues from level 80 "normal" dungeons simply to keep people from completely avoiding normal instances.
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:10 pm

moduspwnens wrote:Eh, that quote was from me, and I'd pretty much agree with your list if you kept the old attunements in... and made Sunwell trash not so farmable.


Basically taking us back to a world where a much smaller portion of WoW's playerbase got to see the raid content. It makes no financial sense for Blizzard to make such a move, especially when the hardcore raiders can still differentiate themselves from those who only have access the PuG'able stuff.

I post this as someone who's benefited from both perspectives....having done fairly aggressive (though I'll be the first to admit not bleeding edge) raiding on my Pally and more "casual" PuG based raiding on my Priest/Rogue. Both playstyles have something to offer, and the existence of each doesn't take away from the benefits of the other.

As for "where do you draw the line?" The answer, as Blizzard has figured out over the past couple of years, is: you move the line as time goes on...so that the elite can be elite while the masses still have an opportunity to experience a fair bit of the content further down the road.
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:13 pm

Dorvan wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:Eh, that quote was from me, and I'd pretty much agree with your list if you kept the old attunements in... and made Sunwell trash not so farmable.


Basically taking us back to a world where a much smaller portion of WoW's playerbase got to see the raid content. It makes no financial sense for Blizzard to make such a move, especially when the hardcore raiders can still differentiate themselves from those who only have access the PuG'able stuff.

I post this as someone who's benefited from both perspectives....having done fairly aggressive (though I'll be the first to admit not bleeding edge) raiding on my Pally and more "casual" PuG based raiding on my Priest/Rogue. Both playstyles have something to offer, and the existence of each doesn't take away from the benefits of the other.


That's a different argument. I'm not arguing they should keep the attunements in... I just said that anything puggable, I think should drop blues. You say (Now that the content has been out for 9 months+) that a lot more than, clearly what I thought, is puggable. I responded that if the attunements were still in place, it would make sense.
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:15 pm

moduspwnens wrote:That's a different argument. I'm not arguing they should keep the attunements in... I just said that anything puggable, I think should drop blues. You say (Now that the content has been out for 9 months+) that a lot more than, clearly what I thought, is puggable. I responded that if the attunements were still in place, it would make sense.


Well, if you're not advocating attunements, then you're acknowledging that it's appropriate for PuG'able content to drop epics as long as that content is far behind the cutting edge of raiding: which is exactly the system we have in place. It may seem a distant memory now, but when Kara first came out people weren't PuG'ing it, and by the time they were the bleeding edge of progression was far beyond Kara.

This all sets aside the issue of whether the color (not quality) of another player's item has any bearing on your play experience.
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:17 pm

Also, I don't know if people aren't reading my posts, but:

Just because I wear Inscribed Legplates of the Aldor and Tankatronic Goggles doesn't mean that the value of your (not you specifically, Dorvan) Helm of Uther's Resolve or Judicator's Legguards has somehow been diminished.


I'll ask the same questions I asked Vanifae early in this thread. What if the Inscribed Legplates were available days after BT opened? The same time? What if the Inscribed Legplates were offered before BT opened by several days? Is that peachy? What if it weren't just the Inscribed Legplates, but a full set of gear?

You can go back to my first post in this thread regarding what would happen if bosses didn't drop loot at all. You have to ask where the line is. Personally, no, it doesn't bother me that the stuff comes out months later and gives everyone a fair shot at it.
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:19 pm

moduspwnens wrote:I'll ask the same questions I asked Vanifae early in this thread. What if the Inscribed Legplates were available days after BT opened? The same time? What if the Inscribed Legplates were offered before BT opened by several days? Is that peachy? What if it weren't just the Inscribed Legplates, but a full set of gear?

You can go back to my first post in this thread regarding what would happen if bosses didn't drop loot at all. You have to ask where the line is. Personally, no, it doesn't bother me that the stuff comes out months later and gives everyone a fair shot at it.


Well, then what's your point exactly? You're arguing against a system (bleeding edge quality badge gear being released at the same time as raids droping that quality gear) which doesn't exist now and doesn't appear to be planned for WotLK.
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:20 pm

Dorvan wrote:Well, then what's your point exactly? You're arguing against a system (bleeding edge quality badge gear being released at the same time as raids droping that quality gear) which doesn't exist now and doesn't appear to be planned for WotLK.


Cause it's one step in the direction toward that, and it defeats the argument that "It doesn't matter what the other guy is wearing; it shouldn't ruin your experience."
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:22 pm

moduspwnens wrote:
Dorvan wrote:Well, then what's your point exactly? You're arguing against a system (bleeding edge quality badge gear being released at the same time as raids droping that quality gear) which doesn't exist now and doesn't appear to be planned for WotLK.


Cause it's one step in the direction toward that, and it defeats the argument that "It doesn't matter what the other guy is wearing; it shouldn't ruin your experience."


What's one step in the direction towards that? Also, you can construct a slippery slope argument for anything: any change taken to the extreme is probably a bad thing, that doesn't mean that more modest changes aren't reasonable.
Last edited by Dorvan on Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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