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Kil'jaeden

Kalecgos, Brutallus, Felmyst, M'uru, Entropius, Kil'jaeden

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Postby PsiVen » Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:00 am

Ryu wrote:Gotta say tho, paladin reflections remain a real ... pain in the ass >.>


Yeah, they inspire me to go ahead and create that 5 Shockadin arena team.
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Postby inthedrops » Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:14 pm

Atreidies,

Adding the raid mark to my macro has really improved my pickup ability. Just wanted to thank you again.

We're struggling but we're making good progress. There's so much that can go wrong from my perspective. Not sure the mistakes you guys have made but hopefully I've made most of them by now. Let's see....I've had my back exposed and gotten owned, I've had fire bloom going into reflections spawning, I've had resisted shield toss, misclicked judges/taunts, moving before my shield got tossed, failed bubble macro where it didn't get clicked off (still can't explain that one cause I fraps all attempts and I'm clearly spamming my macro) etc. etc. the list goes on and on.

This fight has at least become fun again once I was able to get past the "where the f%^k are they" step that I felt so stuck on. So, thanks :)
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Postby Atreidies » Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:51 am

inthedrops wrote:Atreidies, Adding the raid mark to my macro has really improved my pickup ability. Just wanted to thank you again.

No problem, did the same thing for me and my feral that helps ensure the 4th add is stuck on me loves it as well.

I've had my back exposed and gotten owned

Yeah, first time I did that was immediately followed by my Free Action pot fading and me getting stunned and wrecked by my own reflections =[

I've had fire bloom going into reflections spawning

This happens alot, I have to save bubble for it and when it happens you lose alot of threat for adds, not much you can do unless you want KJ dps to intentionally slow down for your firebloom to tick down, which we do now before the 85% spawns since it's not an issue to wait there and give me the extra threat lead.

This fight has at least become fun again once I was able to get past the "where the f%^k are they" step that I felt so stuck on. So, thanks :)

Yes, I definitely feel you there, I enjoyed the fight immeasurably more after I got over the frustration of standing in the raid trying to find Reflections when I was OOR or facing the wrong way for my eyes to follow where my AS went.

Good luck!
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Postby inthedrops » Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:07 am

Atreidies wrote:
I've had fire bloom going into reflections spawning

This happens alot, I have to save bubble for it and when it happens you lose alot of threat for adds, not much you can do unless you want KJ dps to intentionally slow down for your firebloom to tick down, which we do now before the 85% spawns since it's not an issue to wait there and give me the extra threat lead.


We made one change for the first set of reflections that helps a lot. At 87% I always call out to stop DPS regardless of Firebloom timing. I then make a quick assessment on whether we can continue DPS'ing or if we have to wait for Firebloom. And once I know I don't have bloom I call for DPS again. This works very well and allows me to save my forbearance for wings. I pop wings for the first set of reflections and the warlocks SS the second set. This allows me to bubble off bloom for the second set since we can control the first as described above.

We haven't made it too far past this point yet.
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Postby Cakes » Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:29 pm

We haven't gotten out of phase 3 yet, but we're getting pretty close (couple percent behind where we need to be). However, I do have a few questions regarding raid comp and certain situations that arise in the fight.

1) While I had planned to have a feral druid for KJ "tanking" on this fight, he decided to take a surprise vacation, which leaves me with one of two options: prot warrior holdover from the M'uru fight, or a warlock. I would prefer not to use a lock because we only have 3 available and I'd like to have all 3 for doing seed spam. The prot warrior seems to do fine except we were running into threat issues during Shadow Spikes where he's not getting hit. There's also the issue of the near continuous knockbacks. Anyone have any suggestions?

2) Most of last night people were reporting that they were getting one breath, not the other, and in some cases, neither. This is all from people standing directly in front of the dragon, so they should be in range of both effects. Do people have any specific spot that they stand in relation to a dragon?
I'm also under the impression that the dragon controllers shouldn't be waiting for stragglers (i.e. you miss a breath, it's your own fault). Is this correct?

3) Priest adds are a bitch to deal with, and I was thinking about tanking three of them and having my warrior tank peel one off me at a time. Any problems with having him tank the priest near our rogues/dps warriors for damage in addition to what the warlocks are doing? Also, do you have a shaman focus on keeping renews off the current target, or just KJ?

4) Some guilds seem to favor not collapsing other than for when shields are needed. We've started out collapsing prior to the first flame dart, but we've had more than our fair share of "OMG FLAME DART" deaths when we're all clumped and not moving fast enough. Any suggestions for whether we should continue this or just collapse when absolutely needed?
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Postby inthedrops » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:56 pm

Disclaimer: Haven't killed KJ yet and only on occasion make it to second set of reflections.

Cakes wrote:1) While I had planned to have a feral druid for KJ "tanking" on this fight, he decided to take a surprise vacation, which leaves me with one of two options: prot warrior holdover from the M'uru fight, or a warlock. I would prefer not to use a lock because we only have 3 available and I'd like to have all 3 for doing seed spam. The prot warrior seems to do fine except we were running into threat issues during Shadow Spikes where he's not getting hit. There's also the issue of the near continuous knockbacks. Anyone have any suggestions?


We use a prot warrior and he doesn't take too many knockbacks. Maybe two to three per try. Is he standing REALLY deep and close to KJ? If he is try asking him to back up further and not be so close. Otherwise, I'm not too sure what our warrior does to not get that many knockbacks.

Cakes wrote:2) Most of last night people were reporting that they were getting one breath, not the other, and in some cases, neither. This is all from people standing directly in front of the dragon, so they should be in range of both effects. Do people have any specific spot that they stand in relation to a dragon?
I'm also under the impression that the dragon controllers shouldn't be waiting for stragglers (i.e. you miss a breath, it's your own fault). Is this correct?


It should be the individual's responsibility to "clump up" as much as possible and the controller's responsibility to haste the clump. If some people are getting it and some aren't then chances are they are not as clumped as they should be. Ask the controller to start looking for who's not clumped up correctly and inform those people. It's a frontal cone ability so as long as the controller isn't too close to everyone they probably aren't the problem.

Cakes wrote:3) Priest adds are a bitch to deal with, and I was thinking about tanking three of them and having my warrior tank peel one off me at a time. Any problems with having him tank the priest near our rogues/dps warriors for damage in addition to what the warlocks are doing? Also, do you have a shaman focus on keeping renews off the current target, or just KJ?


I can't say for certain but I CAN say that we use dispells, I just don't know how heavily we focus on them. I can ask if you like. But we used to have a priest problem as well until we started marking them for single target dps instead of relying on AoE. So, it starts with AoE for a bit as I bring them near KJ and get initial threat. But as soon as they are there I mark one with a Skull and tell DPS to go to town. Rinse and repeat till they are all dead. Basically, the raid knows that if it's priests that they have to be single targeted down once I call for dps.


Cakes wrote:4) Some guilds seem to favor not collapsing other than for when shields are needed. We've started out collapsing prior to the first flame dart, but we've had more than our fair share of "OMG FLAME DART" deaths when we're all clumped and not moving fast enough. Any suggestions for whether we should continue this or just collapse when absolutely needed?


Ok here's my understanding of this. Some orbs are closer than others and allow us to haste the raid and escape flame dart quicker than others. I suspect my understanding is incorrect though. We eventually decided that it was not necessary to haste everyone and are currently trying a strat that doesn't rely on the raid wide haste buff collapse for the same reason you referenced (flame dart timing). We've been trying something where only the melee get hasted during the one you're talking about, then later on the controller calls for two other groups (one at a time) to collapse for haste. The controller is watching the flame dart timer. This seems to be working ok.

Our current problem by the way is the second orb spawn. We have a lot of attempts where the first orb goes down in 10 seconds or less but the second one can live for as long as 40 seconds as it flies East then behind KJ. How have you guys solved that problem? We HAVE managed to kill them both in 10 seconds each before but we don't seem to know how to do it consistently. I would appreciate any tips for those that worked past that problem.
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Postby rozakk » Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:15 pm

where is your raid setup? assuming ur using a bit less than half of the room i think most poeple keep their ranged spread to the edges. for the orb that spawns and rotates away from the raid, you better have ur ranged ready to beat into it quick before it gets out of range and starts bolting the melee. the orbs are similar to the spinners from entropius, in that they are targetable before they fully materialize and activate, so starting asap on them can cut into their damage significantly.

sometimes where we have issues is when people are running in for darkess just as an orb has come out, which can be pretty shitty luck as kj gets lower and more orbs are spawning without ranged dps'ing them down quickly.
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Postby inthedrops » Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:33 pm

rozakk wrote:where is your raid setup? assuming ur using a bit less than half of the room i think most poeple keep their ranged spread to the edges. for the orb that spawns and rotates away from the raid, you better have ur ranged ready to beat into it quick before it gets out of range and starts bolting the melee. the orbs are similar to the spinners from entropius, in that they are targetable before they fully materialize and activate, so starting asap on them can cut into their damage significantly.

sometimes where we have issues is when people are running in for darkess just as an orb has come out, which can be pretty shitty luck as kj gets lower and more orbs are spawning without ranged dps'ing them down quickly.


Thanks for the response.

Our ranged is more or less spread out along the back wall (warlocks/mages) and the outer most edges (hunters). We have some shadow priests (2) on each corner but closer to the melee than the wall. So we "kinda" have what you have except for where the warlocks are.

We made a bit of progress tonight however with this problem. We are more deliberate about targeting that one that goes behind KJ and tags melee before getting on the other one. So they're dieing better now. We're just still not consistent about it. We have a couple other problems it seems.

Thanks again it's much appreciated.
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Postby Mithos » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:31 pm

First proper night of attempts today (yesterday was serious for a bit but then it became "omg let's let everyone we know in to see him spawn!" :D).

Best try was when we wiped (ofc) at 3rd darkness in phase 2 whilst he was on 68%, before that about 21 people were alive. Out of those 21, all of them survived the second bubble collapse which is promising.

Tanking the reflections is indeed quite fun, I don't know if they nerfed the hunter ones or not but they were so easy to gather. Do they have Imp Wing Clip which procs sometimes? I only saw them slowing me by 30% when I wasn't using my FAPs and even then I just did BoF and rounded them up into SoC range.

Too early to tell what potential problem are, but it's looking a fun and interesting encounter. Pretty much everyone is just relieved the mighty paperclip is down after 2 wipes on different evenings the previous week (1%, 4%) where our highest DPS SPriest DC'd about 15 seconds into phase 2... >.<.
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Postby rozakk » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:00 am

hunters are nerfed, no more imp wing clip. before i'd have to do a freedom/fap/freedom cycle to keep em near me and we'd try to rape em down as much as possible during that time (usually got them near dead at least). u'll still want faps for the paladin reflections though. it is fun but you definitely will want to put urself in the hands of a competent healer.
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Postby Splug » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:53 am

Cakes wrote:1) While I had planned to have a feral druid for KJ "tanking" on this fight, he decided to take a surprise vacation, which leaves me with one of two options: prot warrior holdover from the M'uru fight, or a warlock. I would prefer not to use a lock because we only have 3 available and I'd like to have all 3 for doing seed spam. The prot warrior seems to do fine except we were running into threat issues during Shadow Spikes where he's not getting hit. There's also the issue of the near continuous knockbacks. Anyone have any suggestions?
There are two knockbacks. One is proximity based (similar to the eye of C'thun, it launches you if you're too close to the center of the model) and the other is threat based. The former is automatic, the latter seems to be parry/dodgeable, but I haven't gotten enough attempts to be sure. Once I found the right spot, it wasn't that bad; I'd get one maybe once per 30 seconds or so. Check the position and that should be fine.

Regarding the void spikes: I noticed the same problem, and Kil'Jaedan seems to go to the highest target on his threat table at every soul flay - meaning the 130% rule is not in effect. The first warlock to hit 101% on omen gets devoured. Given that soul flay can't be avoided anyway, I'm tempted to use some pvp gear and try to ramp up threat by hitting the bastard harder. I've also heard rumors that resil reduces your damage from the soul flay DoT.

But we're looking at possibly having a feral tank as well in the long run, while I just drive the dragons around. That decision is still in the works.

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Postby PsiVen » Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:09 pm

We've had some success (wipes in the 30s due to deaths) with a feral on KJ, me on reflections, and prot war on reflection pickup / dragon duty.

Unless you lack a paladin for reflections, I'm not sure how worthwhile it is to stay prot as a warrior on this fight. For KJ some form of fury/prot might generate more aggro (our feral wears mostly DPS gear), and for pickup/dragons you spend most of the fight as DPS and should never have to tank more than 1 add for more than a second or two.
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Postby Lieris » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:48 pm

I really can't see how a warrior or paladin could tank KJ effectively without gimping the raid, a feral druid in DPS gear makes incredibly good threat with the best HP. Revenge for Illidan shear? :)

PsiVen wrote:We've had some success (wipes in the 30s due to deaths) with a feral on KJ, me on reflections, and prot war on reflection pickup / dragon duty.


That's what we do.
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Postby Cakes » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:51 pm

Yeah, we've since stopped having agro issues on KJ. Our prot warrior was doing almost 900 dps while tanking last night, so I think the best solution would be to have him go fury and throw on a few stam pieces as needed.

Reflections aren't really much of a problem anymore, except mages, who I've forced to come to KJ at the transition points. We still occasionally have problems with collapses, but most are smooth now. We're consistantly wiping at around 60-55% (our last wipe was right at 55%) with a few people dead, so now we're just looking to eek out that extra couple percentage points on him.
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Postby Mithos » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:20 pm

Resilience should reduce soul flay damage as it is a DoT yes, Splug. If you do arena/PvP at all would full PvP gear be good for tanking there? You would be crit immune from resilience and get a lot of DoT reduction from it whilst keeping plenty of stamina/DPS stats to tank one reflection - although with little avoidance I don't know how viable tanking a rogue or such reflection would be. Are the reflections disarmable at all?

We just have our highest DPS warlock tank him and haven't had any problems with threat or things like that at all. He switches to shadowbolt when he has a nice searing pain threat lead to keep the DPS up and mixes in searing pains if peopel close in. We haven't really pushed for DPS yet but threat has been no issue at all, our best try is about 64% which we hit consistantly when people don't screw up early :p.

Also I agree with PsiVen tbh in that if you use a pala to tank reflections and have either a feral/spare warlock to tank KJ, warriors are not really much use as protection as they're only being sunder bots and picking up lose reflections/tanking a reflection. Said warlock above even helps SoC the reflections and can still maintain a huge threat lead, he just has to hold back a bit so he doesn't overaggro, we are even contemplating giving him salv during reflections so he can nuke just as much. Will have to see how that works with a full consumable/at least 23 people up try.

We are still very much in the learning stages but I think we have made quite night progress for only two and a bit nights which is surprising but nice.
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