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Tanking Classes Compilation for WotLK - Last update 17 OCT

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:19 am

It's just SP, which rets get by the thousand with Sheath of Light
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Postby Pizbit » Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:48 pm

The correct spelling is: Durids
See: http://www.wowwiki.com/Alamo
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Postby Sartor » Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:09 am

Hm, as it seems blizzard are ready to release the 80 level content. :)

Then we are going to see how the threat of all tanks is going to be adjusted, and eventually experience some changes.

A proof of the fact that the 80 level content might be released soon is this screenshot: http://www.worldofraids.com/gallery/fil ... iginal.jpg

In addition, tanks seems to be kinda finished as for the current content of 77 level, during the last patch they were all receiving just minor tweaks and bug fixes. :)

The real fixing will be coming with the release of level 80 content where we can expect major changes on the whole tanking concept at high-end instances.

GIF BETA KEY!!!!
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Postby Olsonic » Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:47 am

I'm having problems understanding some of the logic in this thread:

Sartor wrote:Final thoughts: Paladins are going to use Str as primary TPS stat. The only skill that rely on Spell Power is Holy Shield.


You clearly state in your paladin tanking run-down, several examples of how spell power will be incorporated into paladin tanking. For example:

Sartor wrote:In addition, most of our skills scale both with AP and SP. Only Healing spells and Holy Shield does not scale with AP - they scale with just SP


holy sheild currently scales with 5% of your spell damage per block... and considering you have it up at all times on a single target boss... i hardly think you can say spell damage isn't import unless you are AOE tanking..

Another example:

Sartor wrote:New Judgment/Seal system

[*]All cause damage based on attack power and spell power (Judgment damage = 36%*AP + 58%*SP). The damage is additionally modified by the currently active Seal.


as I read through the descriptions of the judgements:

Sartor wrote:Judgment of Light - Health gained = 18% * AP + 18% * SP
Judgment of Wisdom - Mana gained = 9% * AP + 9% * SP

SoR: AP/SP at same time.
Damage per swing = 5% * WS * AP + 10% * WS * SP
Increases Judgment damage by 25%.

Seal of Light: Health gained per proc = 28%*(AP + SP)

Seal of Wisdom: Mana gained per proc = 14% * AP + 14% * SP

SoV/Cor:
DoT: Damage = 7% *V* AP + 3.4% * V * SP => 35% * AP + 17% * SP @ full stack
Proc: Damage = 1.2% * WS * SP



So basically, all of your seals will equally scale with attack power and spell power except SoV.. which i found to be a shitty tanking seal compared to Seal of Crusader (+judge) Seal of Righteousness (+judge) in BC..

Another example is:

Sartor wrote:Retribution Aura - now hits for 100-180 damage not talanted. This transformed into threat is 190-342 threat per hit for the paladin and 100-180 for any other tank. Also scales with spell power


In many fights in Burning crusade, my paladin tank uses ret aura for extra threat, and considering it scales with spell power, this same strategy could be used in WotLK. I understand the 3 point talent in imp devotion aura looks like it might be forcing many pally tanks to use it during boss fights, but I'm wondering with the addition of the 20 min Lay on hands and the OPd divine sheild... will we really need imp devotion aura? meaning, wouldn't ret aura still be a better idea?

My last question is on

Sartor wrote:Shield of Righteousness - level 75 base skill. Hits the target for 200% of your block value in non mitigated Holy damage, and causes High amount of threat 6 seconds cooldown and (6% of the total mana) very low mana cost.


This seems to be a spell that will be used in the regular spell rotation, and again it scales with spell power.. and the cooldown is only 6 seconds.. so I am wondering, if two spells that we use most often.. holy shield.. shield of righteousness, and the judgements in between, all scale with spell power, and all cost mana to cast, wouldnt spell damage weapons with +int and +stam be a better option than +strength weapons?

There are even examples deep in the protection tree that spell power is emphasized.. for instance:

Sartor wrote:Touched by the Light - Increase your spell power by an amount equal to 10%/20%/30% of your stamina and increases the amount healed by your critical heals by 10%/20%/30%. This allows the paladin to wear real gear and not steal warlock and mage swords... now we steal rogue swords :twisted:


I don't know why you would abandon spell damage weapons just because a talent boosts your spell damage by 30%.. i mean, wouldn't this fact encourage you to invest in spell damage weapons since you are getting this boost to the stats... and thus the fact that so many off your spells scale equally with AP and SP.... when you have 3/3 in this talent your spells will be benefiting 30% more from SP than AP.

Edit: it also should be noted you can boost Strength up to 15% in talent tree


I look forward to a response.. I think it is clear that pally tanking is getting a (needed?) boost in wotLK. I am very excited to play..
Last edited by Olsonic on Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Andox » Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:50 am

Sartor wrote:Hm, as it seems blizzard are ready to release the 80 level content. :)

Then we are going to see how the threat of all tanks is going to be adjusted, and eventually experience some changes.

A proof of the fact that the 80 level content might be released soon is this screenshot: http://www.worldofraids.com/gallery/fil ... iginal.jpg

In addition, tanks seems to be kinda finished as for the current content of 77 level, during the last patch they were all receiving just minor tweaks and bug fixes. :)

The real fixing will be coming with the release of level 80 content where we can expect major changes on the whole tanking concept at high-end instances.

GIF BETA KEY!!!!


Wuut! Hm, seems that you must have a flyer to access this zone, or atleast the little chapel on the island ;)
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Postby PsiVen » Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:27 am

Olsonic, while the scaling may appear to be equal in some places between AP and SP, remember that every 1 STR = 2 AP. That should give you an idea, and a closer look at the math reveals that Strength and pure Block Value are our best threat stats, followed at a distance by AP which is significantly better than SP, which is significantly better than Stamina (SP from the talent based on Stam)

Whether or not we will still be using spell power weapons is up in the air at the moment due to Hammer of the Righteous, which scales with raw weapon damage but not very well.
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Postby Olsonic » Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:34 am

PsiVen wrote:Olsonic, while the scaling may appear to be equal in some places between AP and SP, remember that every 1 STR = 2 AP.


yeah but you don't see weapons with +500 strength and (+1000AP) but you do see spell damage weapons with +500 spell power (which is buffed to 650 with 3/3 in talent tree (increases spell power by 30%)

Not to mention the fact I tried to point out that holy sheild, and ret aura and sheild of righteousness don't use AP.. and just use Spell power
Last edited by Olsonic on Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Macha » Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:37 am

This seems to be a spell that will be used in the regular spell rotation, and again it scales with spell power


ShoR does not scale with spell power.

Your confusion mostly stems from not looking closely at the aggro mechanics. Strength for X ilvlpoints gives more aggro per point than Spelldamage for X ilvlpoints. Strength also adds noticeable mitigation.

The conclusion is that, in a situation where we can chose between both stats, we would be stupid to pick spelldamage.

Weapons are, right now, a special case, and here is why:
In WOTLK, we know of two 80 onehand epics. Both are maces. And both are slow. Because the spelldamage weapon is as slow as the melee weapon, and because the melee weapon has no strength, the spelldamage weapon does, overall a bit more aggro than the melee weapon.

Notice that the aggro difference is small, less than 50 tps. Were the spelldamage mace fast, the melee weapon would be better. The main reason the spelldamage weapon pulls ahead to begin with is the lack of strength. If you had a weapon with the same stats as the spelldamage weapon, except that the 490 Spellpower would be turned into their equivalent amount of strength, then the strength mace would be a far better choice.

It is likely that tanking weapons will have a lot of strength. If they do - and if such tanking weapons exist to begin with - then they will be better for aggro than spellpower weapons. The same happens when spellpower weapons are mostly fast.
We don't know weapon itemisation yet. We can only guess what we will get. Personally, I'm hoping for tanking weapons with 100+ Strength. :)
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Postby PsiVen » Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:37 am

That talent grants spell power based on stamina, it doesn't directly increase your spell power from gear.

There are two epic blacksmithing weapons currently in game, one is 88 DPS with 490 SP and the other is 143 DPS with 140 AP. The difference between the two when tanking 1-3 targets is less than 2% threat.
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Postby Andox » Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:52 am

yeah but you don't see weapons with +500 strength and (+1000AP) but you do see spell damage weapons with +500 spell power (which is buffed to 650 with 3/3 in talent tree (increases spell power by 30%)

Not to mention the fact I tried to point out that holy sheild, and ret aura and sheild of righteousness don't use AP.. and just use Spell power


It´s not Spell Power x 1.3, it´s stamina x 1.3 = spell power. So that talent scale wit hstamina, not your SP.
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Postby Olsonic » Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:55 am

Macha wrote:
Your confusion mostly stems from not looking closely at the aggro mechanics. Strength for X ilvl points gives more aggro per point than Spelldamage for X ilvl points. Strength also adds noticeable mitigation.

The conclusion is that, in a situation where we can chose between both stats, we would be stupid to pick spell damage.


when you mention "aggro mechanics" what do you mean? I am sure these mechanics were calculated assuming a certain spell rotation was being used.

Im having a hard time understanding how people are stating that there is a linear relationship between spell damage and strength when Holy sheild/ ret aura (which do not scale with AP) stack on top of other aggro-spells (which scale equally with SP and AP).


on another note. +spell power variables appear to be much higher than +strength variables in WotK, for example Titan steel bonecrusher has +124 strength (+244 AP), when the spell damage weapons are like +490 spell power. so obviously, it isn't exactly a linear relationship if the gear we can equipt usually doubles the amount of spell power when compared to strength
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Postby Andox » Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:01 am

Olsonic wrote:
Macha wrote:
Your confusion mostly stems from not looking closely at the aggro mechanics. Strength for X ilvl points gives more aggro per point than Spelldamage for X ilvl points. Strength also adds noticeable mitigation.

The conclusion is that, in a situation where we can chose between both stats, we would be stupid to pick spell damage.


when you mention "aggro mechanics" what do you mean? I am sure these mechanics were calculated assuming a certain spell rotation was being used.

Im having a hard time understanding how people are stating that there is a linear relationship between spell damage and strength when Holy sheild/ ret aura (which do not scale with AP) stack on top of other aggro-spells (which scale equally with SP and AP).


on another note. +spell power variables appear to be much higher than +strength variables in WotK, for example Titan steel bonecrusher has +124 strength (+244 AP), when the spell damage weapons are like +490 spell power. so obviously, it isn't exactly a linear relationship if the gear we can equipt usually doubles the amount of spell power when compared to strength


Well, some abilitys scale of both SP and AP, but keep in mind that HotR and Holy Slam scale only with STR. STR also add up for BV = mitigation. We must have a good BV, both for threat and for mitigation since they nerf the avoidence and stear us into a more armor, stam and str route.
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Postby Olsonic » Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:05 am

Andox wrote: We must have a good BV, both for threat and for mitigation since they nerf the avoidence and stear us into a more armor, stam and str route.


So are you going to be using devotion aura at all times unless you are on trash or large AOE pulls?
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Postby Andox » Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:09 am

Olsonic wrote:
Andox wrote: We must have a good BV, both for threat and for mitigation since they nerf the avoidence and stear us into a more armor, stam and str route.


So are you going to be using devotion aura at all times unless you are on trash or large AOE pulls?


Where did I say that? And also, +3% healing to the entire raid is good, isn´t it? Since you have a Retadin using Ret aura I don´t see anything negative by using Devo aura all the time.
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Postby Olsonic » Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:37 am

Andox wrote:
And also, +3% healing to the entire raid is good, isn´t it? Since you have a Retadin using Ret aura I don´t see anything negative by using Devo aura all the time.


Agreed.
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