Fix Sanctuary/Benediction! Compilation of Suggestions

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Postby Proudfoot » Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:54 pm

Boldbeard wrote:I think Tier 1 Ret needs to shuffled a little. I.BoM needs to be moved down to Tier 2. Move I.Judge and HotC up to Tier 1. Keep Benediction Tier 1 but make it a 3 point talent which increases the debuff effects of Judgements by 3/6/10%. This would also serve to actually reduce movement speed of the target of JoJ debuff by the indicated amount, and increase the mana/healing of JoW and JoL debuffs. Remember the debuff benefits all party members, not just the pally.


I have to completely disagree. As a Ret paladin HotC needs to be moved WAY down the tree so that it's RET utility. Right now ret doesn't have a whole lot and keeping that ret specific would help alot for justifing a place for us in raids.

Increasing the effect of our Judgements would be nice but I don't see it affecting JoJ at all sorry.

Boldbeard wrote:Sancturary should be taken out and SotR should become a talent ability in its place. Then move HS to baseline (after all, warrior's Shield Block is baseline). Impr HS would stay talented and replace HS in the tree.

Swapping SotR and HS as basline abilities would be a good change I think. SotR does not help tanking per say. Mitigation is the primary trait of tanks, then threat after. Ret has plenty of threat from CS, Judging and HS with RF threat increase now baseline, but lacks on mitigation where as fury/arms warriors simply chance stance and raise Shield Block with Sunders. HS being baseline instead of SotR would make it easier for Ret pallies to go sword and board in normal mode and tank. What good does 2x threat on your highest DPS do when your dead.

SotR is needed almost exclusively by Prot pallies for extra 'ummph' in single target threat we could use in raiding and give us some pvp and world pve viability. Plus it would be available to level 30 prot pallies.


If you make Holy Shield baseline then Ret paladins would be almost as good or better then prot for tanking... do you really want that?
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Postby Magnusharkov » Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:11 pm

How I would tweak stuff:

1) Benediction. Reduces the mana cost of all instant cast spells by 2/4/6/8/10% (overpowered but you get the idea)
Or 2) swap benediction with deflection. Please god just do this. Please. Please

3) swap redoubt with shield spec. See above

4) Hand of sanctuary, boosts all threat generated by the target by 10%, also boosts strength by 25%. Lasts 30 seconds, 2 min cooldown
Or 5) "Random overpowered talent instead of sanctuary":
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Postby Boldbeard » Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:40 pm

Proudfoot wrote:
Boldbeard wrote:I think Tier 1 Ret needs to shuffled a little. I.BoM needs to be moved down to Tier 2. Move I.Judge and HotC up to Tier 1. Keep Benediction Tier 1 but make it a 3 point talent which increases the debuff effects of Judgements by 3/6/10%. This would also serve to actually reduce movement speed of the target of JoJ debuff by the indicated amount, and increase the mana/healing of JoW and JoL debuffs. Remember the debuff benefits all party members, not just the pally.


I have to completely disagree. As a Ret paladin HotC needs to be moved WAY down the tree so that it's RET utility. Right now ret doesn't have a whole lot and keeping that ret specific would help alot for justifing a place for us in raids.

Increasing the effect of our Judgements would be nice but I don't see it affecting JoJ at all sorry.

Boldbeard wrote:Sancturary should be taken out and SotR should become a talent ability in its place. Then move HS to baseline (after all, warrior's Shield Block is baseline). Impr HS would stay talented and replace HS in the tree.

Swapping SotR and HS as basline abilities would be a good change I think. SotR does not help tanking per say. Mitigation is the primary trait of tanks, then threat after. Ret has plenty of threat from CS, Judging and HS with RF threat increase now baseline, but lacks on mitigation where as fury/arms warriors simply chance stance and raise Shield Block with Sunders. HS being baseline instead of SotR would make it easier for Ret pallies to go sword and board in normal mode and tank. What good does 2x threat on your highest DPS do when your dead.

SotR is needed almost exclusively by Prot pallies for extra 'ummph' in single target threat we could use in raiding and give us some pvp and world pve viability. Plus it would be available to level 30 prot pallies.


If you make Holy Shield baseline then Ret paladins would be almost as good or better then prot for tanking... do you really want that?


I could see HotC being moved deeper, making it Ret specific.

...almost as good as Prots for Tanking. So if SoC goes baseline someday, I instantly become as good as Ret for dps??? Not likely.

The idea is that Pallies, Wars, DKs and Druids can tank 5 mans, unless healer spec'd. HS is not the staple of tanking IMO. Impr RF, Spell Warding, AD?, Expertise, AS (pulling), now HotR, thunderjudge, SotT...all make Prot's superior for MT'ing with or without HS. The idea behind making HS baseline is to help Ret's be more viable 5 man tanks, but make ShoR a 21 point talent to drive home Prot's shield pwnage.

Another aspect, is there a flip side to healers?? Is running 5 man gonna require a spec'd healer?? What if your healer is a Shadow Priest out of form?? Still feel comfortable with little to no mitigation??

As a 75 "net new spell" ShoR is crap really because its so niche. It's only for Prots. Holy's can use it, but with their gear doubtful it'll be worth anything, and only for solo'ing. I doubt a holy pally is gonna run up, 30yard judges be damned, just to smack something with his shield then run back away from damage. Ret's are gonna go 2H'ers except for when tanking 5 mans. So ShoR is a crap baseline skill. A new 75 skill needs to be brought in imo. HS goes baseline to help mitigation for Ret, and maybe even Holy who might put to tanking. But ShoR in the hands of a properly geared prot with SotT...huzzah!
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Postby Lonso » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:31 pm

I've got a 77 pally in beta. I'm wearing a piece or two of T5/T6 gear that have Int but almost all str/sta/defense gear. I'm using a str/sta weapon. I'm getting a whole 28 Int from gear. I have 5497 mana unbuffed. I don't see what the big concern is over mana. This is for a number of reasons.

1) JoW scaling is huge. In addition to scaling, it's stacking. My JoW + a holy's JoW + a ret's JoW is a LOT of mana. So much so that every time I use judge or I cast HotR or ShotR, I get more mana back than I spent. Even with just 2 pallies we'd probably get back more than we spend. I haven't looked at how everything scales to 80.

2) Running 5-man as MT, and the only pally in the group, while completely overgearing the instances I have only run low on mana when chain pulling trash and not being good about keeping JoW up.

3) With the addition of HotR and ShotR and the AS's shorter cast time, our seal is a much smaller percentage of our threat. In situations where we can spare a little threat temporarily to replenish our mana bar, we can SoW in addition to JoW which gets us back more than we're spending on most of our spells. I've run 5-man this way in my T5/T6/new crafted blues gear without aggro problems, except for a ret pally who prefered to hit something other than what I was hitting.

The last thing we need at this point is people crying to Blizz that we need more int. If you really want it, spec Divine Intellect. You'll already have SoP in the first tier anyway.

I'm also surprised people think our tier sets will have Int. I'd be surprised if it does. I don't even want to see that or we're looking at warriors and DKs getting priority on tank drops since people think we need Int on our gear. Even if mana was an issue, I'd rather have better regen than a bigger empty bar. Maybe a set bonus that buffs SA or something like that.
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question

Postby Kenshiro » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:06 pm

Could someone clear this up for me, as ive been scratching my head over it for about 30 minutes...

if you DONT take benediction, the only other option is Improved Blessing of Might... if you take niether, then you cant get deflection. that's 5% parry... not something i would part with lightly.

So, my guess is, you guys are taking improved blessing of might? I dont have access to beta... im just a TBC noob. Right now, i almost never use blessing of might, and NEVER on myself when i tank.

So, is BOM something that's actually good for us to tank with? I know we will get a damage coeffecient from our AP. Would you guys cast BOM over Sanctuary or kings on yourself when tanking?

I anxiously await your wisdom!
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Postby Ferrix » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:13 pm

No you would not choose BoM over BoK for tanking if you're the only paladin, this is especially true due to the expansion changes. We'll be using warrior tank gear which is loaded with str, so the 10% str from kings helps way more then the AP from BoM
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Postby Kenshiro » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:17 pm

so... is everyone suggesting just not taking benediction or deflection and giving up the 5% parry?
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Postby PsiVen » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:35 pm

No. We're suggesting that we're taking Benediction anyway and we're tired of it being terrible, or that we're taking Imp BoM for soloing.

BoM is always going to be better than BoK for pure attack power btw, I use it a lot where my HP doesn't matter. You'd need over 1k strength with Kings to match the level 70 rank of Might.
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Postby Kenshiro » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:37 pm

ahhh i see
thanks for clearing that up
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Postby Lonso » Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:02 pm

You have to count the spell power from stam as part of kings dps buff as well.
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Postby Nich » Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:31 am

I'm sort of in favour of Benediction, whether it's moved or not, applying to all instants, not just seals/judges. Assuming 'all instants' doesn't make, uh, cleanse and holy shock overpowered ;o


Lonso wrote:1) JoW scaling is huge. In addition to scaling, it's stacking. My JoW + a holy's JoW + a ret's JoW is a LOT of mana. So much so that every time I use judge or I cast HotR or ShotR, I get more mana back than I spent. Even with just 2 pallies we'd probably get back more than we spend. I haven't looked at how everything scales to 80.
It really stacks? I'd read that it didn't. That's awesome, a three-pally raid is no longer having a wasted judgement up. It also seems slightly OP if there are two or three JoWs up, for mages/warlocks/hunters etc.
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Postby Proudfoot » Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:37 am

Full raid of pallies judging light FTW!

Who needs healers?
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Postby agamemnoch » Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:31 am

Just change it to

Benediction:

On Dodge/Parry has a 2/4/6/8/10 % chance to increase the next weapon swing by 5/10/15/20/25 % and remove any existing global cooldowns

This will allow us to use our slow weapons and still use SoL or SoW to help with mana.

It fits with being in the Ret try as those guys with their big 2H 3.X speed weapons will have a chance to do a bit more damage.
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Postby PsiVen » Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:32 am

Ehh, that sounds like an annoying mechanic that would just mess up rotations and make ret even more OP.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:39 am

Stick Benediction to a broader mana decrease
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