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Fix Sanctuary/Benediction! Compilation of Suggestions

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Postby lusisia » Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:05 am

PsiVen wrote:We reseal about every 10 seconds on Live and every 120 seconds in LK. If judgement mana costs were half before, the talent is like six times worse now. I take Imp Might in my current tanking build, which is great... for leveling 5-mans...


I must be totally missing something then because if mana is going to be as tight as we're all assuming and judging will be done every 20s anyway for Thunderjudge, why is it not a decent talent? Maybe it's not worth 5 points but mana conservation seems pretty important to me.
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Postby Martie » Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:06 am

I'd rather see blessing of sanctuary changed to something like this.
(Probably moved in the protection tree to a follow up of holy shield.)

Sanctuary
When the paladin casts consecration, all friendly targets in the area of effect receive the 'sanctuary' buff.
This buff prevents 5/10/15/20/25% of all (spell?) damage and causes the target to gain mana equal to 1% of all damage received (or 1% of all (holy) damage done).

It fits perfectly with the lore (the paladin blesses the ground he is on, after all), it makes the spell quite valuable in many situations, it gives the paladin some much-needed spell damage reduction, and it helps with the mana problems prot paladins are going to face in Wotlk, considering their small mana pools.

Oh, it also ups the value of paladin off tanks.
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Postby shifttusk » Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:08 am

Redoubt -
Increases your block chance by 1/2/3/4/5% and the ammount absorbed by your shield by 6/12/18/24/30%.

Reasons: With the new 10 charge holy shield in its improved version I really see no need to have a passive AOE block talent. Remove shield spec and condense it to make redoubt a reasonable investment for passive block and BV.

ANNNNDDD

Hand of Sanctuary -
15% of Base Mana 30 Yard Range
Instant Cast 1 Minute Cooldown.
Places a Hand on the friendly target, bracing their shield with teh powers of the light (lolore). The targets shield absorbs 50% more dmg and blocks cause 100-120 (+.1*ap +.1*sp) holy dmg to attackers. When the target is damaged by any mele or ranged attack causes their block chance is increased by 5% stacking 5 times. Last 45 seconds. Causes Forbearance.

Reason: Hey we still want to be aoe tanks but much like our new more dynamic threat system I'd love if our aoe method was a bit more active as well. Knowing we're getting into an aoe situation we would pull with AS then prep this bad boy and consecrate. The 30 second duration would promote other tanks pulling 1-2 mobs off us before we become more squishy. The real beauty of it being a hands spell is we can use it freely when not tanking to reduce tank dmg and increase their TPS. The one minute cooldown and decent mana cost would prevent us from using it as a semi passive 50% block value. Forbearance would force us to select this or bubble wall wisely.

Good? Bad? I like the idea of more active aoe tanking and an almost AOE oh shit button. Also give it the same animation as devine storm :)
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Postby Kayoto » Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:12 am

lusisia wrote:I must be totally missing something then because if mana is going to be as tight as we're all assuming and judging will be done every 20s anyway for Thunderjudge, why is it not a decent talent? Maybe it's not worth 5 points but mana conservation seems pretty important to me.



We'll be using Judgement every 8~10 seconds (depending on # of talent points in Improved Judgement & GCD availability).

Every judgement costs 5% of base mana. At level 80, this'll be at MOST about 250 mana (currently at 70 this is around 200 mana).

Assuming the highest cost (250) and judging every 8 seconds, Benediction is saving you 38 (rounded up from 37.5) mana every 8 seconds.

38 mana every 8 seconds in the best case scenario for 5 talent points? Underwhelming, to say the least.
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Postby Arcand » Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:26 am

It saves us on the re-seal too, IIRC...

...although that stops being an issue in LK, whereupon Benediction will go from 'kind of weak' to 'congealed monkey ass'.
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Postby Kayoto » Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:31 am

Arcand wrote:It saves us on the re-seal too, IIRC...

...although that stops being an issue in LK, whereupon Benediction will go from 'kind of weak' to 'congealed monkey ass'.


I was speaking primarily about WotLK, where re-sealing once every 120 seconds is of minimal concern at best in terms of mana cost.
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Postby lusisia » Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:40 am

Kayoto wrote:
lusisia wrote:I must be totally missing something then because if mana is going to be as tight as we're all assuming and judging will be done every 20s anyway for Thunderjudge, why is it not a decent talent? Maybe it's not worth 5 points but mana conservation seems pretty important to me.



We'll be using Judgement every 8~10 seconds (depending on # of talent points in Improved Judgement & GCD availability).

Every judgement costs 5% of base mana. At level 80, this'll be at MOST about 250 mana (currently at 70 this is around 200 mana).

Assuming the highest cost (250) and judging every 8 seconds, Benediction is saving you 38 (rounded up from 37.5) mana every 8 seconds.

38 mana every 8 seconds in the best case scenario for 5 talent points? Underwhelming, to say the least.


Now let's add in the cost of sealing (even if it is every two minutes):

700 mana cost for seals (using your numbers). So 105 mana saved every two minutes.

It does appear lackluster in that light too. I'm just wondering how big our mana pool will be at 80 in entry level raid gear if there's no int on our gear.

Now that I look at it, considering we only need to judge every 20s to keep up the debuff, is there even a point to Imp.Judgement other than keeping up threat.

Thunderjudge lasts as long as the judgement is up, correct?
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:46 am

lusisia wrote:
Kayoto wrote:
lusisia wrote:I must be totally missing something then because if mana is going to be as tight as we're all assuming and judging will be done every 20s anyway for Thunderjudge, why is it not a decent talent? Maybe it's not worth 5 points but mana conservation seems pretty important to me.



We'll be using Judgement every 8~10 seconds (depending on # of talent points in Improved Judgement & GCD availability).

Every judgement costs 5% of base mana. At level 80, this'll be at MOST about 250 mana (currently at 70 this is around 200 mana).

Assuming the highest cost (250) and judging every 8 seconds, Benediction is saving you 38 (rounded up from 37.5) mana every 8 seconds.

38 mana every 8 seconds in the best case scenario for 5 talent points? Underwhelming, to say the least.


Now let's add in the cost of sealing (even if it is every two minutes):

700 mana cost for seals (using your numbers). So 105 mana saved every two minutes.

It does appear lackluster in that light too. I'm just wondering how big our mana pool will be at 80 in entry level raid gear if there's no int on our gear.

Now that I look at it, considering we only need to judge every 20s to keep up the debuff, is there even a point to Imp.Judgement other than keeping up threat.

Thunderjudge lasts as long as the judgement is up, correct?


Yes.
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Postby Boldbeard » Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:50 am

Redoubt is fine the way it is mechanically. It's a gap closer. When you're getting hit 'alot' its chance to proc goes up and closes any gap in block that quickly depleted HS charges leave. I think blocking is gonna become more on par with dodge/parry in terms of mitigation. BV's in beta right now are already really high. With some BV 80 gear, and some nice 80 BV/BR trinkets I think high BR and high BV will help blocking parallel dodge/parry moreso (speculation admittedly).

That being said, Redoubt should be lowered to 3 talent points 10/20/30%.

I think Tier 1 Ret needs to shuffled a little. I.BoM needs to be moved down to Tier 2. Move I.Judge and HotC up to Tier 1. Keep Benediction Tier 1 but make it a 3 point talent which increases the debuff effects of Judgements by 3/6/10%. This would also serve to actually reduce movement speed of the target of JoJ debuff by the indicated amount, and increase the mana/healing of JoW and JoL debuffs. Remember the debuff benefits all party members, not just the pally.


Sancturary should be taken out and SotR should become a talent ability in its place. Then move HS to baseline (after all, warrior's Shield Block is baseline). Impr HS would stay talented and replace HS in the tree.

Swapping SotR and HS as basline abilities would be a good change I think. SotR does not help tanking per say. Mitigation is the primary trait of tanks, then threat after. Ret has plenty of threat from CS, Judging and HS with RF threat increase now baseline, but lacks on mitigation where as fury/arms warriors simply chance stance and raise Shield Block with Sunders. HS being baseline instead of SotR would make it easier for Ret pallies to go sword and board in normal mode and tank. What good does 2x threat on your highest DPS do when your dead.

SotR is needed almost exclusively by Prot pallies for extra 'ummph' in single target threat we could use in raiding and give us some pvp and world pve viability. Plus it would be available to level 30 prot pallies.
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Postby Aleriya » Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:20 pm

I can see Blizzard adding a support/OT ability on a cooldown, something like:

Sanctuary
Your Hand of Salvation reduces damage taken by 50% for 12 seconds.

or perhaps:

Sanctuary
10 second channeled spell, 2 minute cooldown
All healing effects on the target are increased by 10%, and he gains a 5% chance to parry for the duration of sanctuary.
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Postby Heironeous » Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:23 pm

I'd say make Benediction something of a rounded mana-saver.

Benediction: Reduces the mana cost of all non-healing spells by 2/4/6/8/10%.

This would make every ability benefit (not as much) but still benefit and round out the rest of our mana-reducers to make the burden of low MP on tank gear untill tier pieces trivial. So it would help out on Ret paladins and prots on an equal level, allowing us more stayability.

For Sanc? Why not Make it a more rounded ability?

Blessed Sanctuary
0 Mana
Passive
Self-Only
Your damaging attacks return mana equal to 2% of the damage caused.

Or....

Divine Sactuary
9% Base Mana
Instant, 10 Second Duration, 1 Minute Cooldown
Self Only
Increases Shield Block Rating by X%, and all attacks blocked restore 5% of the damage caused in Mana.

Maybe?

Blessing of Sactuary
9% Base mana
Instant, 10 Minute duration

Places a Blessing of Sanctuary on the target, Reducing all damage taken by an additional 2% and increases all Resistances by another 4% (will work with other resist spells).

The first is a way of renormalizing our mana-return so that when we do damage we can GET some mana rather than get into a spree of dodge/parry and then go oom. The second is for the same purpose, but it's a burst of spare mana (like an in-combat enrage). The third is just for a more general purpose so that we can have a more rounded utility in the raid dynamic.
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Postby PsiVen » Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:36 pm

Honestly for Ret tanking 5-mans I'd rather have ShoR than HS baseline.

The only thing I think we really need is a massive deep prot buff to Divine Plea, but it needs to be totally unavailable to Holy builds so 21pt is out of the question.
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Postby Faux » Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:44 pm

PsiVen wrote:Honestly for Ret tanking 5-mans I'd rather have ShoR than HS baseline.

The only thing I think we really need is a massive deep prot buff to Divine Plea, but it needs to be totally unavailable to Holy builds so 21pt is out of the question.


How about adding it to Touched by the Light as 33|66|100% reduction in Divine Plea's Channeled Time? or hell channel-able while using other skills.
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Postby Boldbeard » Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:55 pm

PsiVen wrote:Honestly for Ret tanking 5-mans I'd rather have ShoR than HS baseline.


Why?? For Ret tanking, you dont need more of what ShoR gives, you need more of what HS gives...mitigation.
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Postby PsiVen » Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:27 pm

It's the cooldown that's killer for Prot, 5m for 3k mana is nothing when you would need it.

Ret tanking isn't looking for mitigation, or you'd respec. As long as you can hold aggro you can tank 5-mans and OT trash mobs.
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