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Raiding Naxx in Tier 6? Def Problem!

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Postby Lemondish » Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:52 am

Norrath wrote:
Sarkan-ZdC wrote:You don't? I like em more than Tier 5 and more than Tier 7.

This is Tier 7:



That's T3. I'm pretty sure they haven't said they would reuse T3 as T7. (I've heard T3 would make a comeback, but that's it.)


I was certain they mentioned the t3 set visuals would be reused for Naxx at 80.

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Postby Kayoto » Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:57 am

Lemondish wrote:
Norrath wrote:
Sarkan-ZdC wrote:You don't? I like em more than Tier 5 and more than Tier 7.

This is Tier 7:



That's T3. I'm pretty sure they haven't said they would reuse T3 as T7. (I've heard T3 would make a comeback, but that's it.)


I was certain they mentioned the t3 set visuals would be reused for Naxx at 80.

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They did, I just can't find the quote at the exact moment.
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Postby PsiVen » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:05 am

You like T3 more than T6? Are you high?

Norrath wrote:
Sarkan-ZdC wrote:You don't? I like em more than Tier 5 and more than Tier 7.

This is Tier 7:



That's T3. I'm pretty sure they haven't said they would reuse T3 as T7. (I've heard T3 would make a comeback, but that's it.)


They've specifically said that T7 will NOT use T3 graphics, those will be used for recolor offset drops ala T2 in TBC. And anyway didn't T7 graphics already leak for several classes?
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Postby Norrath » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:16 am

Paladins wearing Dreadnaught look-a-like...

Hey, I can dream, no?
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Postby blitzme99 » Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:38 am

Well, I can tell you that the stuff you wearing now will have it's stats changed. So this entire thread is pointless until we find out the conversion.

I know a priest that has some leggings that had 101 healing on them. In the expansion beta, his leggings had 64 spell power.

He tells me he lost about 600+ to healing but because of the talent reworks, his heals were landing harder.
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Postby Norrath » Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:59 am

blitzme99 wrote:Well, I can tell you that the stuff you wearing now will have it's stats changed. So this entire thread is pointless until we find out the conversion.

I know a priest that has some leggings that had 101 healing on them. In the expansion beta, his leggings had 64 spell power.

He tells me he lost about 600+ to healing but because of the talent reworks, his heals were landing harder.


We're aware of this and are taking it into account. Defense Rating isn't changing.
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Postby Nich » Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:33 pm

Something that occurred to me, last night:

we don't technically need def to be uncrittable. Talented, HS will give us 10 blocks in 8 seconds. Blocks can't crit.

Assuming we have enough miss/dodge/parry/block to block every hit that lands.
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Postby Dorvan » Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:45 pm

Nich wrote:Something that occurred to me, last night:

we don't technically need def to be uncrittable. Talented, HS will give us 10 blocks in 8 seconds. Blocks can't crit.

Assuming we have enough miss/dodge/parry/block to block every hit that lands.


The same situation applies now...with the bottom line being that the fact that defense is a good avoidance stat + the risk a stun or hit from the back making you crittable making is a bad idea to rely on uncrushability for uncrittability. Plus it's far from clear that we'll be at uncrushable levels of avoidance/block in WotLK.
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:53 pm

Dorvan wrote:
Nich wrote:Something that occurred to me, last night:

we don't technically need def to be uncrittable. Talented, HS will give us 10 blocks in 8 seconds. Blocks can't crit.

Assuming we have enough miss/dodge/parry/block to block every hit that lands.


The same situation applies now...with the bottom line being that the fact that defense is a good avoidance stat + the risk a stun or hit from the back making you crittable making is a bad idea to rely on uncrushability for uncrittability. Plus it's far from clear that we'll be at uncrushable levels of avoidance/block in WotLK.


Yeah even with the overlap, I'm not sure I'd risk it unless getting ample defense was really gimping me in some other area. Given the gear sharing, I doubt it'll be a problem.
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Postby Origon » Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:21 am

Doesn't the 'HS knocking out crits' happen only if it bumps you above 102.4? With the new higher ratings and blizz more or less stating "stop avoiding so many attacks damnit", that may very well not be achievable

Edit: now that there are no more crushing blows on the combat table vs +3 level mobs, is the rest of it simply filled with regular hits now? may be a tad confused on the new look of it...
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Postby Markoh » Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:14 am

If I remember correctly crits are lower on the table and get pushed off first, and then crushes get pushed off. So it would be possible for parry/dodge/block to help push off crits. It has been a long time since I've even worried about crits though so I could be completely off-base on this.

If we are not going to be able to reach un-critable through straight defense this might be a big advantage for us. With holy shield we and our parry/dodge we may be one of the only classes that can easily become un-critable.
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Postby Arcand » Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:17 am

Markoh wrote:If we are not going to be able to reach un-critable through straight defense this might be a big advantage for us. With holy shield we and our parry/dodge we may be one of the only classes that can easily become un-critable.


I'm sure that's not their intent. They're taking out crushing blows because they didn't like the unpredictable spike damage - can't really see them leaving us crittable so that we (and warriors and knights) take even worse unpredictable spike damage.

Also, they adjusted the bears' anti-crit talent so that three points in it makes them uncrittable.
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Postby Prinsesa » Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:22 am

Doesn't the 'HS knocking out crits' happen only if it bumps you above 102.4? With the new higher ratings and blizz more or less stating "stop avoiding so many attacks damnit", that may very well not be achievable

Edit: now that there are no more crushing blows on the combat table vs +3 level mobs, is the rest of it simply filled with regular hits now? may be a tad confused on the new look of it...


The attack table against a level 83 would look like:

Miss
Parry
Dodge
Block
Crit
Hit

If I remember correctly crits are lower on the table and get pushed off first, and then crushes get pushed off. So it would be possible for parry/dodge/block to help push off crits. It has been a long time since I've even worried about crits though so I could be completely off-base on this.

If we are not going to be able to reach un-critable through straight defense this might be a big advantage for us. With holy shield we and our parry/dodge we may be one of the only classes that can easily become un-critable.


Crits are higher on the table than Crushes (Miss -> Parry -> Dodge -> Block -> Crit -> Crush -> Hit)

It is currently possible to be uncrushable BUT be crittable. That is, your avoidance is 102.4% with Holy Shield up, but your defense is below 490, such that you MAY get crit during periods where Holy Shield is down.

That being said, if it is currently extremely difficult to reach uncrittable now, I would count on reaching uncrushable being even less likely, especially since we will no longer see a lot of Block Rating (a very cheap way to get uncrushable) on any tanking gear.
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Postby PsiVen » Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:35 am

It's tempting to imagine: (similar for DK/War)

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Reduces the mana cost of your stuff by 15/30% and reduces your chance to be critically hit by 1/2%.


However!

There is a problem with the idea of off-spec tanks if everyone relies on deep talents to not be crit. How will we have lower avoidance than TBC while maintaining 20 more defense skill? We may see a new paradigm of stacking defense gems at all costs, but then, Blizzard specifically said that they wanted to make it simpler for tanks to gear. Would they really require folks in full blues to put +defense in every single slot to avoid being crit, something that is a standard requirement for heroics?
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Postby Mortehl » Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:39 am

I see 3 scenarios listed in no particular order:

1: The +defense skill returns.
2: The mechanic is simply changed reducing the amount of defense needed closer to the current level.
3: The item budget value for defense is drastically reduced and gear appears with a shit-ton of defense.
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