Spell Warding worth 2 points?

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Spell Warding worth 2 points?

Postby Lonso » Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:46 am

I know this has been brought up before but I'm not a fan of thread resurrection and I'm not sure whether the preference here is for or against it.

Spell Warding seems over-priced to me. Consider this: For every 1 point I put in Imp Righteous Fury I gain a 2% reduction to all incoming damage and a 16.6% increase to threat from my Holy damage. Compare that with Spell Warding which grants a 2% incoming damage reduction limited to only spell damage and has no additional benefit such as Imp RF's additional threat.

And the damage reduction isn't even all that significant. For a hit of 10k it shaves off 400.

With RF not SW
100 - 6 = 96
1000 - 60 = 940
5000 - 300 = 4700
10000 - 600 = 9400

With RF + SW
100 - 10 = 90
1000 - 100 = 900
5000 - 500 = 4500
10000 - 1000 = 9000

If we consider dropping SW, the question is where do we move those points that provides the most benefit. Or, how can we make up for the loss of 4% mitigation versus spells?

One idea would be to spec Imp JotC if you don't already have it or Crusade if you do. Both of these provide additional threat (all the time for Imp JotC, most of the time for Crusade). One could argue that this would allow you to swap out a piece of +dmg plate for a piece of resist gear. With the resist numbers on gear these days this may be a more significant reduction than the 4% SW offers anyway though less predictable.

Maybe put points back into Reckoning if you don't still have it. Though I've come to dislike this talent. I've moved my spec away from anything proc-based (Reckoning) or gimmicky (Imp LoH).

Other ideas are mostly trash-specific benefits: Imp Hammer of Justice to stun, thereby interrupt spells, more often -- only on trash. Or maybe Vindication (giving up on spell mitigation and getting more versus melee), again only works on trash.

I'm not 100% sold on this idea yet and wanted to bring it to the community for discussion. I do, however, firmly believe that SW is over-priced and it seems to me that we all spec it simply because it's there and because we're so vulnerable to spells that we're willing to overpay without giving it much thought.
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Postby Lore » Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:59 am

I'm largely with you, been strongly considering dropping it myself. The question is, what do I get instead of it?

I've been talking to our Paladin healing RO and I should be able to drop Kings without a problem, considering dumping as much as I can into Weapon Expertise.
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Postby Alixander » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:14 pm

Also one could point out that one of our core weaknesses that is very challenging to overcome is our ability to take on caster/elemental mobs. For casters, we require so much avoidance to maintain uncrushable status, getting gear that would give us the amount of resistance we need and remaining uncrushable would be really hard. For Elemental mobs, having Holy Shield taken away isn't crippling, but it certainly doesn't help things.

Dropping Spell Warding frees up two points that seem to me to be a bandaid fix on a gaping wound of a problem. By spending those two points elsewhere we could work towards expanding our abilities in areas we excel.
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Postby Lore » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:17 pm

Alixander wrote:Dropping Spell Warding frees up two points that seem to me to be a bandaid fix on a gaping wound of a problem. By spending those two points elsewhere we could work towards expanding our abilities in areas we excel.


An excellent point. I know in my situation, our Warriors tank all the heavy spell damage mobs.
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Postby YoYoMa » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:38 pm

Yeah the question for me is what would I replace it with. Weather or not it is useful is only judged against what you would gain otherwise.

Personally I like anything that reduces my damage intake and many bosses do a mixture of spell/melee still with some exceptions. And since stam is obviously our weak point something like this does help makeup for that, even if slightly.

One logical choice for what to pick up would be what Lore suggested, weapon expertise. Threat isn't really an issue for me so I wouldn't be looking at it from that standpoint, but in the once posted thread about reducing the number of parries against you, you effectively reduce the melee damage against you as well.

I don't have the math to decide if the amount of damage reduced from lessening the parries against you equates to spell damage reduction by SW (obviously different schools so not really apples to apples), but that might be worth it right there just to help smooth out spike damage. hrm, interesting...
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Postby Alixander » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:53 pm

Well as always, the "more weapon skill = less parries" is questionable at best. Testing has shown that it doesn't, despite what the CMs say. Maybe we're missing something, but this is what we've seen so far.

=====

Of course, what talents you take is dependent on what talents you already have and where you plan to tank. For example, if you're sticking to 5-mans and heroics (which is fine) talents like Spell Warding are actually pretty good, because there are rarely more than one tank.

For raiders, specialization (aka min/maxing) is usually considered the "way to go", especially after Karazhan when raid sizes go from 10 to 25 people. One thing to consider is if you take the Redoubt > Shield Spec option and forgo Imp Devo Aura, putting points there. Personally I don't think Shield Spec is worth 8 points, so I go 5/5 in Imp Devo Aura. In raids, it's a rare day that I don't use Devo Aura when tanking, and every little bit helps.

For me, I'd probably move the two points from Spell Warding to either Guardian's Favor or 2/5 in Reckoning. The other talents in the Prot tree are either not worth it IMO, or they are obviously PvP talents. If I could I would put the two points elsewhere (Imp Judgement, say what?), but for my build by the time I pick up BoSanc, I'm only at 23 points, so I need two more to go further. And yes, a lot of people swear by Reckoning, but I'm just not a huge fan of it. *shrugs* It's not bad, but I don't like relying on random procs (never have been).
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:37 pm

Alixander wrote:Well as always, the "more weapon skill = less parries" is questionable at best. Testing has shown that it doesn't, despite what the CMs say. Maybe we're missing something, but this is what we've seen so far.


From my understanding it's a question of how much it reduces parries, not that it doesn't reduce them at all.

As for reckoning, there's a big difference between relying on random procs and simply gaining a benefit from them. Pretty much everything is a result of the RNG and therefore random, but you lose nothing if reckoning doesn't proc.
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Postby Demiblade » Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:47 pm

If given a choice after dropping it, I'd put that 2 points I gain into Guardian's Favor. Remember how it was part of the vanilla mainstream talent to use BoP as your 2nd taunt until we needed that 2 extra points for improved holy shield in 2.1?

Why Guardian's Favor nowadays? To handle fear. I posted a seperate thread altogether here in details.

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... php?t=1791

Refer to the reasoning part for Guardian's Favor. Based on your idea, dropping spell warding instead of reckoning is actually nice to keep reckoning fans happy and still handle fear effectively. I am a mitigation freak however (I even use gilded thorium cloak for the extra stm plus that armor for extra mitigation %) so mine is a different story altogether.
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Postby Thels » Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:11 am

I always prefer the mitigation talents over the threat talents, so it's a stayer for me.

Of course points in Imp RF would be better (unless you get purged a lot), but we can't endlessly dump points in there.
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Postby Agravaine » Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:01 pm

I have also been considering dropping this.

My plan was to move my 5/5 WE back to Reckoning, and then put those two points into WE. Since I'm human, I'm not really giving that much up.

Of course, having a lower cooldown on BoP would help for Nightbane, but honestly, we are going to be leaving that content soon in any event.
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Postby Daeren » Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:36 pm

I think it's nice to have something that helps our biggest weakness, namely spell damage.

Although WE is nice, I don't think it's really worth it (considering that i have inante +5 weaponskill already).
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Postby Furiouso » Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:23 pm

I dropped Spell Warding and Precision for Weapon Expertise as a test the first time it was brought to our attention around here that weapon skill would decrease parries, etc. I haven't regretted this move at all.

I usually miss 2-3% less, get parried 2-3% less and have my attacks dodged 2-3% less than the night elf warrior I tank with in Kara over the course of the evening. He doesn't have any hit or weapon skill in his gear set. I'm human so I have +5 mace and sword skill naturally, but the extra +10 weapon skill just accentuates this. I feel it also synergizes well with Reckoning to help threat, so to me it's a win all around.
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