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Raiding Naxx in Tier 6? Def Problem!

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Raiding Naxx in Tier 6? Def Problem!

Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Sun Aug 03, 2008 1:51 am

Hey,

Remeber that "you can keep Tier 6 and replace it with epix from Naxx". Well..

Level 70: 490 Def needed. 350 Def + 20 Def from Anticipation means 120 Def or 283,84620672 Rating needed (lets say 284 Rating).

Now, jump to 80. 540 Def needed. 400 Def, no Anticipation. With the new rating conversion at 80 you need: 688,58972546 (lets say 689 Def Rating.

That is 404 Rating more. HOW?

Yes, new Gems, Yes new Enchants. But that aint even close to 404 Def extra. So we will need total and complete new gear.
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Postby Norrath » Sun Aug 03, 2008 2:00 am

Where's that "quote" from?

T6 gear should, based on previous experience, allow you to go to level 80 without replacing any of it. Will it let you raid? Maybe. T3 was equivalent to 70 blues and allowed you to raid Karazhan (though tanks had to get some upgrades due to the stamina rework).
T3 was the epitome of gear in 1.x though. T6 isn't -- Sunwell Plateau gear is.

But there's a fallacy in your argument. T6 gear doesn't have just 284 Defense rating on it.

While you won't hit 689 Defense rating just from T6 gear, it will get you a long part of the way. "Complete new gear" is just wrong.
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Postby Seloei » Sun Aug 03, 2008 2:52 am

not to mention a few pieces will be still a lot better than what new pieces can drop from instances. Yes, ofcourse you need new tanking gear once you start raiding, but that was the same deal with t3 -> karazhan. Altho, it all depends on how big/small the upgrade to gear levels is going to be and the amount of damage intake etc.
Way too early to say if it will be enough or not. But most likely you will need to get atleast a few new pieces.
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Postby Worldie » Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:27 am

I can get 560 defense at the moment, for what it matters. If you are in "T6", you got a collection of items from MH, BT and Sunwell, not just T6 itself :)

Plus, it's unclear if blizzard wants critcapped tanks at 80. There's very few items with defense around (half of which is craftable).
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Postby Maethoriel » Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:05 am

Worldie wrote:Plus, it's unclear if blizzard wants critcapped tanks at 80. There's very few items with defense around (half of which is craftable).

Survival of the Fittest granting 6% chance to not be crit instead of 3% (beta vs live) is a very clear indicator.
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Postby ulushnar » Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:12 am

Worldie wrote:Plus, it's unclear if blizzard wants critcapped tanks at 80. There's very few items with defense around (half of which is craftable).


To be fair, with the craftable set there's more than there was at 60-67. I guess we have to see what the lvl 80 itemization's like.
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:11 am

Norrath wrote:Where's that "quote" from?

T6 gear should, based on previous experience, allow you to go to level 80 without replacing any of it. Will it let you raid? Maybe. T3 was equivalent to 70 blues and allowed you to raid Karazhan (though tanks had to get some upgrades due to the stamina rework).
T3 was the epitome of gear in 1.x though. T6 isn't -- Sunwell Plateau gear is.

But there's a fallacy in your argument. T6 gear doesn't have just 284 Defense rating on it.

While you won't hit 689 Defense rating just from T6 gear, it will get you a long part of the way. "Complete new gear" is just wrong.


The numbers are from the sticky. Rating Conversion (Tank Comparison, second posting).

I thougth the same, get Sunwell/BT+ Gear, Raid Naxx. But right now with the change that you need SO much more Def, I can not see it happening. I see me in Dungeon Set 4 blue Set, Crafted and Reputation stuff in Naxx.
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Postby Norrath » Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:20 am

Sarkan-ZdC wrote:I thougth the same, get Sunwell/BT+ Gear, Raid Naxx. But right now with the change that you need SO much more Def, I can not see it happening. I see me in Dungeon Set 4 blue Set, Crafted and Reputation stuff in Naxx.


You're jumping the gun here. There's a LOT of Defense available at level 70; far, far, far more than is necessary.

So really, relax. If you are in Sunwell/BT gear, you'll most likely still be wearing a lot of that gear in Naxx (assuming Blizzard comes through on rearranging the sets to account for our stat differences).
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Postby Arcand » Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:17 am

Norrath wrote:You're jumping the gun here. There's a LOT of Defense available at level 70; far, far, far more than is necessary.

So really, relax. If you are in Sunwell/BT gear, you'll most likely still be wearing a lot of that gear in Naxx (assuming Blizzard comes through on rearranging the sets to account for our stat differences).


Do you mean 80? 'cause from the back-of-the-envelope calculations, the amount of defense we're running right now won't have us anything like uncrittable at 80.

http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintankadin/viewtopic.php?t=11501&start=30
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Postby Lemondish » Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:21 am

The current gear is itemized with stats slightly different than what we'd want at 80. Spell power loses its luster when two of the most important new single target threat abilities do not use it to scale. I'm currently in part t6/part sunwell epics and I can see myself replacing that along the way to 80, not just AT 80. I'll lose tons of avoidance, but chances are I'll be gaining tremendous amounts of Str and Stam which should aid in the transition and make tanking a hell of a lot more fun.
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Postby Heironeous » Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:14 pm

With the Shield of the Righteous coming our way at 75, I'm not sure what to do honestly. I dont know if we'll need more STR gear to scale it properly or if the stam/BV gear will do it justice, I just dont know.

Sort of why I'm torn on the idea of leveling prot or leveling Ret. You KNOW you can solo your way up as ret, but you got no idea if you can tank your way up to 80 with the almost complete itemization/game mechanics changes.

And I honestly think I'll use 2 T6 pieces up till 80 if I level prot. Just for the +10% on attunement if nothing else.
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Postby Worldie » Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:19 pm

Our "old" itemization works fine at the moment to tank.

Considering it might eventually be reworked i don't see any reason to change gear or spec. For sure, not with greenies of level 70.
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Postby Forlorn » Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:39 pm

I think everyone is jumping the gun, i have tanked up through halls of stone and am currently capped at lvl 77, i have had no problems and im in a mix of t5 and t6 gear. We only have the craftable set to see what they are thinking and that cant even be made since no one seems to know how to smelt Saronite on the beta yet. In general there is not much in the way of tank gear available that I have seen yet.

However for people thinking they are going to be able to build a stam/block value set at 80 I wouldnt be so sure. Since they want all three plate tanking classes to use the same gear I will be very surprised if there is any BV on anything outside of shields. So plan now for a situation where you have Str, Stam and Def/Dodge/Parry on gear and BR/BV only on shields.

As for leveling, I leveled to 75 ret, it was fast easy and fun. Then I specced prot and leveled from 75 to 77 so far as prot in ret gear with sword and board. It was slightly less fast, still easy and still fun. However without access to SotR it isnt quite as fast or easy. SotR really is very nice.

My point is that to much speculation now before anyone is even lvl 80 is a waste of time and or a mistake. But when speculating remember that the gear is shared across 3 classes and one of them cannot use shields. This will color blizzards thinking and should yours as well.
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Postby Lemondish » Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:45 pm

Worldie wrote:Our "old" itemization works fine at the moment to tank.

Considering it might eventually be reworked i don't see any reason to change gear or spec. For sure, not with greenies of level 70.


At the moment? What about Hammer of the Righteous. Our "old" itemization prioritizes spell damage as our threat stat, but Hammer of the Righteous doesn't use spell damage whatsoever because its weapon damage based. Attack Power, and therefore Strength, scales the ability.

Once we hit level 75, halfway to 80, we acquire Shield of Righteousness which scales with BV, which our current gear has. But now Strength provides BV at a 2:1 ratio making it a lot more desirable. With all our abilities (except ONLY Holy Shield) now scaling off of attack power AS WELL AS spell power, it only makes sense that Strength becomes the smartest threat stat.

I have no doubt that well geared tankadins who tank well will also tank well come the expansion, but there are other ways to look at gearing and playing that will increase our success instead of just assuming our awesome gear will propel us to 80.
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Postby Ferrix » Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:57 pm

Yeah, its a little too early to tell, but with all the changes to which stats pallys will be using now, it makes sense that blizzard will rework all of the old gear to use the necessary stats. If they want warriors/pallys to use the same gear, I'm assuming they'll want all gear to be the same not just the new 70-80 gear, meaning they'll rework old gear.
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