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Moroes: Funny Stuff Happening?

Attumen, Moroes, Maiden, Opera, Curator, Illhoof, Aran, Netherspite, Chess, Prince, Nightbane

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Moroes: Funny Stuff Happening?

Postby Paksennarion » Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:50 pm

So we've been running KZ for a couple months now. We're mostly casual, but we've pretty well got Attumen/Moroes/Maiden on farm status, manage R&J and Oz real simply, and are sort of learning BBW (had it once so far). Curator is our big stumbling block, most of the time.

This past week though, was insane. Friday night due to storms in an area where a number of guildies live, we only managed to down Attumen, but did so with no real issues. Saturday night, I wasn't able to go. Apparently, they spent nearly 3 hours - cleared trash three times and gave up shortly after - trying to down Moroes with no success. I don't know the details, but the guild leadership basically put it down to not having the normal tank setup (in other words, me for MT or my normal OT to fill in) and having a few folks on their first trips. (I know one of the new hunters managed to somehow shoot Moroes while they were rebuffing from a wipe...)

So Sunday evening, we go. We clear trash, uneventfully. We get to Moroes, and we've got our A-list people this time, no problems. Three priests, so burn one add, shackle three, nuke Attumen, run out after he drops, done.

First problem is, we were getting absurd numbers of resists and early breaks on shackles for the adds. Two of the priests were Shadow, one was Disc, and all three had them constantly breaking, then resisting two or three times in a row. (Also had a Holy paladin for heals.) This was bad enough, but suddenly Moroes is gouging me and either ignoring the MT (who was a competent warrior - had 5 sunders up and was spamming Devastate/Heroic Strike) or Blinding him and running amok amongst the DPS and healers. Repeatedly.

So after we wipe at 5%, we come back, rebuff, decide we're going to try burning one add, have me tank the prot warrior and Moroes, and see if that helps the CC and what not. Every time I get gouged, the prot warrior runs off to attack someone else, rather than hit me and break it. (Can anyone confirm this is normal or not? I'd read that adds will break gouge/blind on you for this fight...) Again, We're getting Gouge/Blind combos on both tanks, significantly more often than I've seen in the past.

Longer story slightly short, we did this three more times with various changes (including freeze trapping the third add) before we finally managed to get him down. We then went and one-shotted Maiden, usually a much harder fight for us, with no difficulties.

Has anyone else seen any weird behavior on this fight? Is it just that normally we've got two tanks and a melee DPS involved that happens to be eating the blinds for us? We're all scratching our heads trying to figure out what happened and we've seen one or two mentions of other problems with Moroes on the official forums but no details.

If anyone can point to what's actually going on or give some insight, I'd appreciate it. I'm running the first time for our second group tonight - we just now got to where we can form it - and I'd really like to know ahead of time whether or not we're going to have the same issues.
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Postby Blaen99 » Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:59 pm

BoSac someone that has garrote and keep it on them to break gouge.

Don't rely on the mobs to break it - it seems random as to if they will break it or not that way.

I don't use an OT on Moroes, I just AoE tank him and his adds - if it wasn't for BoSac breaking gouge, it'd be GFG on him.
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Postby jere » Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:29 pm

Also, I think some of the adds have the ability to cleanse shackles (the ret paladin comes to mind).
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Postby Lonso » Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:34 pm

jere wrote:Also, I think some of the adds have the ability to cleanse shackles (the ret paladin comes to mind).


The holy pally and shadow priest do as well.
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Postby Paksennarion » Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:43 pm

Yep, Shadow priest was the burndown target, and the others were shackled, they just didn't stay that way. We had the Holy Pally, Shadow Priest, DPS War and Prot War. When we switched to trapping, DPS war was the one we were trapping. Shadow Priest was always burned down as the soft target.

The problem wasn't really cleanses, except that the shackles kept breaking. So yeah, it was possible that some were cleansed, but overall they wouldn't have been without the break in the first place.

Edit: To clarify, all three shackled, pop, 5 seconds later the prot warrior broke shack, then the Holy Pally a couple seconds after that. Prot war resisted 3 or 4 times a couple of different times. This was truly absurdly rough this week.
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Postby Erutaron » Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:41 pm

Paksennarion wrote:Edit: To clarify, all three shackled, pop, 5 seconds later the prot warrior broke shack, then the Holy Pally a couple seconds after that. Prot war resisted 3 or 4 times a couple of different times. This was truly absurdly rough this week.


My main is a shadow priest atm (still lvling my pally), and during Moroes I obviously have to shackle. I litterly shackle every 3 casts (about 10 seconds) due to heartbeat resists. All your shacklers have to constantly reshackling thier mobs, and standing at max range so they have enough room to shackle b4 they get 1 shot

Moroes can be tricky at times, and one good thing to remember is that he is resettable if things go horrible, you just need to run outta the room to reset him, garotte's still have to die though :-(
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Postby jere » Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:37 pm

A good focus macro will help with shackling as well.
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Postby Paksennarion » Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:34 am

Went tonight with a drastically different group composition and had virtually no problems. At present I'm putting it down to a severe lack of melee DPS to soak the Blinds, since there was absolutely none the other night.

We didn't down him, but all the problems I was seeing last week weren't present, and this time we had two rogues and a DPS warrior up there with us. Being that it was a new group, and one of the rogues was rather undergeared, we just didn't have the DPS to burn him down once he enraged, and we had a lack of ability to manage the garrotes, leaving our healers rather more vulnerable than I'd like.

We're going to try tomorrow, but I'll be going on my Mage. We're short DPS and we've got more than a few tanks around, so I get to take one for the team, being the RL for this run.
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Postby Aina » Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:01 am

This is all normal behaviour really. You can ignore the posibility of such things happening, and with a little luck it'll never cause you any wipes.
Mobs turn away from people that are CC'd, however, if the CC, in this case Gauge, lands -just- when the add you're tanking is swinging his weapon, it'll break.
Same goes for Seal of Blood, the return damage happens a fraction of a second after you hit your target, if Gauge lands between your hit and the return damage, SoB will break it.
However, it's counting on luck, and in my opinion, that doesn't do when you're MTing a raid.

The same goes for Blind, you can count on it landing on a Rogue, or on the OT at a time that Moroes doesn't Gauge, and many times it'll work out of you, but you're pushing your luck. Blind needs to be dispelled asap, I usually do this myself actually.
If the add and/or Moroes go for someone other then the OT when you get Gauged, and that off-tank isn't Blinded or whatever, he simply didn't generate enough threat to stay second in aggro.

The same goes for the shackles, with a little luck they won't break much. But as someone else already said, the priests in my raids also reshackle after 2-3 casts. Some even used to shackle after every cast when we first started on Moroes.

So in short, I think you're pushing your luck when fighting him. You know what he's capable of in worst case scenarios, so don't ignore it and hope it doesn't happen, deal with it!

Also, on a slightly unrelated note, Rogues ftw. They're great at stunlocking/ganking those adds. They basicly make sure the adds don't move, and can't cast much.
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Postby Lonso » Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:48 am

Some additional pieces of strategy:

1) Shackle is subject to diminishing returns. If you can trap or turn a mob and then shackle it again it resets the timer and the shackle will last longer again.

2) If you have a warrior have them demo shout near the shackled adds. Do this enough and they will go for him rather than the priests.

3) I Consecrate at the bottom of the stairs on the pull and back out of it. The adds all run through it before they get shackled. They come to me when they break out.
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Postby Lore » Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:08 am

Lonso wrote:1) Shackle is subject to diminishing returns. If you can trap or turn a mob and then shackle it again it resets the timer and the shackle will last longer again.


Incorrect. The only diminishing returns that apply in PvE is on stuns.
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Postby Lonso » Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:29 am

Lore wrote:
Lonso wrote:1) Shackle is subject to diminishing returns. If you can trap or turn a mob and then shackle it again it resets the timer and the shackle will last longer again.


Incorrect. The only diminishing returns that apply in PvE is on stuns.


I can't find anything that confirms or discredits that statement so I'll assume I stand corrected and slap my priests later for spreading misinformation.
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Postby Lore » Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:36 am

I've got a 70 priest that I do Karazhan on, I just did Moroes last night. My add was the last to be killed (after Moroes was dead). It didn't move the entire fight.

I actually used to solo elite undead at 60 as Holy by alternating shackle and smite. It took a long time, but there were definitely no diminishing returns.
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Postby Tybalt » Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:43 am

If your shackles are breaking easy, have your priests stack up some spell hit and spell penetration.

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Postby Jarkeld » Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:53 am

On my priest I've shackled adds fine the whole fight. If shackles were on diminishing returns, that would be impossible.
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