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Postby Vanifae » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:03 pm

In the short term this is actually a decent solution for me, in the long term I am sure with more fear breaks this will be an easy fight for me. But if my warriors can tank her today with minimal shenanigans then why force the guild to do unorthodox things when we can achieve victory with someone else at the helm tanking.

Now maybe you prescribe to the “I must tank everything in sight or bust” school, but I ascribe to the “what will help my guild progress” school, and doubly so as a raid leader. I have to take my pride out of the equation and look at what I can do to help everyone.

Now I am going to PvP to get the trinket but if I don’t have that and 100% confidence that we can pull it off I have other easier alternatives. Proving a point is one thing; doing so at the expense of success is foolish.
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Postby Blaen99 » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:08 pm

Vanifae wrote:In the short term this is actually a decent solution for me, in the long term I am sure with more fear breaks this will be an easy fight for me. But if my warriors can tank her today with minimal shenanigans then why force the guild to do unorthodox things when we can achieve victory with someone else at the helm tanking.

Now maybe you prescribe to the “I must tank everything in sight or bust” school, but I ascribe to the “what will help my guild progress” school, and doubly so as a raid leader. I have to take my pride out of the equation and look at what I can do to help everyone.

Now I am going to PvP to get the trinket but if I don’t have that and 100% confidence that we can pull it off I have other easier alternatives. Proving a point is one thing; doing so at the expense of success is foolish.


I've one-shot Nightbane pretty much every week, Vani.

Spending a couple days of casual PvP has nothing to do with any of what you just said - it's ultimately just laziness.
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Postby Lore » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:11 pm

Blaen99 wrote:Spending a couple days of casual PvP has nothing to do with any of what you just said - it's ultimately just laziness.


Absolutely nothing wrong with that in the slightest.

This is a game, we all play it to have fun. If you don't consider a couple days of casual PVP fun, and it's not necessary to do what you do consider fun... why do it?
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Postby Blaen99 » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:12 pm

Lore wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:Spending a couple days of casual PvP has nothing to do with any of what you just said - it's ultimately just laziness.


Absolutely nothing wrong with that in the slightest.

This is a game, we all play it to have fun. If you don't consider a couple days of casual PVP fun, and it's not necessary to do what you do consider fun... why do it?


If you are going to be a raid leader and say half of what Vani just said, Lore...

Think about it for a sec.
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Postby Vanifae » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:13 pm

Blaen99 wrote:
Vanifae wrote:In the short term this is actually a decent solution for me, in the long term I am sure with more fear breaks this will be an easy fight for me. But if my warriors can tank her today with minimal shenanigans then why force the guild to do unorthodox things when we can achieve victory with someone else at the helm tanking.

Now maybe you prescribe to the “I must tank everything in sight or bust” school, but I ascribe to the “what will help my guild progress” school, and doubly so as a raid leader. I have to take my pride out of the equation and look at what I can do to help everyone.

Now I am going to PvP to get the trinket but if I don’t have that and 100% confidence that we can pull it off I have other easier alternatives. Proving a point is one thing; doing so at the expense of success is foolish.


I've one-shot Nightbane pretty much every week, Vani.

Spending a couple days of casual PvP has nothing to do with any of what you just said - it's ultimately just laziness.

So you personally by yourself one-shotted Nightbane every week while 9 other people just stood there and watched?

What I am talking about is guild performance you are simply making a blanket statement saying one PvP trinket is going to save the day. It isn't, it will help I agree with that. We got him to sub 30% once, I consider that quite good for a fresh guild who has never really done the encounter before.

My feeling is that the fear mechanic in PvE is old, it's lazy encounter design, and ultimately one faction has a vastly easier time of it then the other.

Laziness? I spend most of my time doing Dailies to afford other gear that will help me in many more encounters then one that is built around a single mechanic that only class has to break it, reliably.
Last edited by Vanifae on Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Lore » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:15 pm

Blaen99 wrote:
Lore wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:Spending a couple days of casual PvP has nothing to do with any of what you just said - it's ultimately just laziness.


Absolutely nothing wrong with that in the slightest.

This is a game, we all play it to have fun. If you don't consider a couple days of casual PVP fun, and it's not necessary to do what you do consider fun... why do it?


If you are going to be a raid leader and say half of what Vani just said, Lore...

Think about it for a sec.


I am a raid leader, and we're at Gurtogg in BT and Archimonde in Hyjal.

If there's an easier, equally-effective way to get something accomplished, that's the route you take.
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Postby Blaen99 » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:19 pm

Vanifae wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:
Vanifae wrote:In the short term this is actually a decent solution for me, in the long term I am sure with more fear breaks this will be an easy fight for me. But if my warriors can tank her today with minimal shenanigans then why force the guild to do unorthodox things when we can achieve victory with someone else at the helm tanking.

Now maybe you prescribe to the “I must tank everything in sight or bust” school, but I ascribe to the “what will help my guild progress” school, and doubly so as a raid leader. I have to take my pride out of the equation and look at what I can do to help everyone.

Now I am going to PvP to get the trinket but if I don’t have that and 100% confidence that we can pull it off I have other easier alternatives. Proving a point is one thing; doing so at the expense of success is foolish.


I've one-shot Nightbane pretty much every week, Vani.

Spending a couple days of casual PvP has nothing to do with any of what you just said - it's ultimately just laziness.

So you personally by yourself one-shotted Nightbane every week while 9 other people just stood there and watched?

What I am talking about is guild performance you are simply making a blanket statement saying one PvP trinket is going to save the day. It isn't, it will help I agree with that. We got him to sub 30% once, I consider that quite good for a fresh guild who has never really done the encounter before.

My feeling is that the fear mechanic in PvP is old, it's lazy encounter design, and ultimately one faction has a vastly easier time of then the other.

Laziness? I spend most of my time doing Dailies to afford other gear that will help me in many more encounters then one that is built around a single mechanic that only class has to break it.


The fear mechanic is not the problem.

There's no reason a paladin can't tank Nightbane and never be feared - assuming they have the 2-minute PvP trinket.

6 minutes is the realistic limit before he must be in air phase and you have no more fear breaks left, btw, assuming 2-min PvP trinket.

Having your raid group swap MTs and whatnot is not something I'd willingly put on any raid group I lead. Different threat mechanics, different tanking mechanics, and a different tank? Forcing the raid to learn/deal with that on one boss alone?

That's the exact reason I came up with the method for a paladin to tank NB without fear ward or tremor totem.
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Postby Lore » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:22 pm

You are correct, there is no reason a Paladin can't tank Nightbane.

There's also no reason to use a Paladin tank when an equally-geared Warrior tank is available. They can do it just as well as we can, without needing long cooldowns or wasting a trinket slot.

Also, for the record, I've tanked him (on my Paladin) and I don't have either PVP trinket. It's certainly not necessary.

Also:
Having your raid group swap MTs and whatnot is not something I'd willingly put on any raid group I lead. Different threat mechanics, different tanking mechanics, and a different tank? Forcing the raid to learn/deal with that on one boss alone?


Assuming your raid group a) somehow has no idea how Warrior tanks work, or b) doesn't even have a Warrior tank, you're going to have a hard time in 25-man content. If your goal is purely for Karazhan, then cool, I'm honestly glad for you. But having a diverse tanking lineup is a lot more benefit than the sum of its parts.
Last edited by Lore on Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Blaen99 » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:25 pm

Lore wrote:You are correct, there is no reason a Paladin can't tank Nightbane.

There's also no reason to use a Paladin tank when an equally-geared Warrior tank is available. They can do it just as well as we can, without needing long cooldowns or wasting a trinket slot.

Also, for the record, I've tanked him (on my Paladin) and I don't have either PVP trinket. It's certainly not necessary.


You know, the entire argument of "wasting a trinket slot" makes me want to stab someone in the face.

Although not you, the vast majority of the tanks that try to argue that could get nearly as much to more from just optimizing their gems/enchants than what the trinket slot gives in the first place. Making a min/max argument when your gear isn't min/maxed in the first place is FTL.

It's like the retarded argument against ret paladins, where people want to only min/max the spot the ret paladin takes - not every spot.
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Postby Lore » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:37 pm

Blaen99 wrote:Although not you, the vast majority of the tanks that try to argue that could get nearly as much to more from just optimizing their gems/enchants than what the trinket slot gives in the first place. Making a min/max argument when your gear isn't min/maxed in the first place is FTL.


Neither of us are arguing that a bad warrior tank is a better choice than a good paladin tank purely on merit of Berserker Rage. We're also not saying that if a Warrior tank is not available you should drop everything and rush out and find one before attempting Nightbane.

The only point that Vanifae and myself have been trying to get across is that, if a Paladin and Warrior tank of equal gear and skill level are available, there is no need for the Paladin to put an extra amount of effort into optimizing their ability to tank Nightbane as the Warrior can do it just fine without it. If you choose to do so, great! If not, it's no big deal, as you don't *need* the Paladin tank to be able to do it.
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Postby Blaen99 » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:40 pm

Lore wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:Although not you, the vast majority of the tanks that try to argue that could get nearly as much to more from just optimizing their gems/enchants than what the trinket slot gives in the first place. Making a min/max argument when your gear isn't min/maxed in the first place is FTL.


Neither of us are arguing that a bad warrior tank is a better choice than a good paladin tank purely on merit of Berserker Rage. We're also not saying that if a Warrior tank is not available you should drop everything and rush out and find one before attempting Nightbane.

The only point that Vanifae and myself have been trying to get across is that, if a Paladin and Warrior tank of equal gear and skill level are available, there is no need for the Paladin to put an extra amount of effort into optimizing their ability to tank Nightbane as the Warrior can do it just fine without it. If you choose to do so, great! If not, it's no big deal.


Truth be told, I disagree.

If the paladin can tank NB without being feared or losing aggro - is there a difference?

I am never feared. Nightbane never looks away from me. I have an easier time picking up NB during his landing phase.

What benefit would a warrior tank offer over me?

The argument for "berserker rage!" is because the warrior won't be feared. But I'm never feared. He never looks away from me, or chooses another target - and about 2/3rds of the time, he bugs, so I can keep up DS or BoP and he'll stay on me even with them being up.

In order for a warrior to be quantified as "superior" or "better", what benefit would one offer going from DPS to MT on NB?

Quantify the benefit please.
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Postby Vanifae » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:41 pm

I am not saying we can’t, it is certainly easier. I also want to say that I do want to tank him; I want the pleasure of putting his ass in the dirt. Could my guild do it, I think we can, I think with a little better explanations then what I gave; success is there. I also know that like Lore said having a diverse tanking pool is in no way detrimental, it only serves to aid our progression.

Even without the trinket we got him to less then 30%, and I am proud that we did, and I know that success is not our of the question.

Now given that I know others have done it, I want to try. I am not being a nay-sayer but I also agree that if I have another alternative why not take it? At the end of the day all I care about is the success of the raid.

Oh and yeah for the most part that trinket is waste for everything else I normally do.

Edit: I am not going to argue with you, it is pointless you have your stance, and I respect that. I agree with Lore, I am not advocating quitting I am just looking at it from the perspective of what my options are.
Last edited by Vanifae on Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Blaen99 » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:42 pm

Vanifae wrote:I am not saying we can’t, it is certainly easier. I also want to say that I do want to tank him; I want the pleasure of putting his ass in the dirt. Could my guild do it, I think we can, I think with a little better explanations then what I gave; success is there. I also know that like Lore said having a diverse tanking pool is in no way detrimental, it only serves to aid our progression.

Even without the trinket we got him to less then 30%, and I am proud that we did, and I know that success is not our of the question.

Now given that I know others have done it, I want to try. I am not being a nay-sayer but I also agree that if I have another alternative why not take it? At the end of the day all I care about is the success of the raid.

Oh and yeah for the most part that trinket is waste for everything else I normally do.


Why aren't you doing arena's, even as prot, for arena points Vani?

< 30 minutes a week, 10 matches a week got me my S2 mace. Good luck getting something better than that. And, well, that trinket is insanely good for arena.
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Postby Questioner » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:43 pm

I did it with the 5 minute trinket, but the 2 minute one would have made it cake!

For horde on my battlegroup it would take me weeks to get the 2 minute trinket without dedicating my life to it. Maybe some day.
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Postby Vanifae » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:44 pm

I don't PvP, I used to enjoy but now not so much why do something I hate to do, when I don't have to.
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