Gear Reset Makes Me Angry...

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Postby ulushnar » Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:54 am

Veneretio wrote:I think Kael and Vashj are pretty tough. (that being everyone just skips them now)


Yeah, Kael and Vashj are the guild breakers now. Back then though, the learning curve from Ragnaros to Razorgore and Vael was more like a Vertical line.
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Postby Baeric » Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:07 pm

Ulushnar wrote:Back then though, the learning curve from Ragnaros to Razorgore and Vael was more like a Vertical line.


So true. I was so excited when we started to set foot in BWL, but it started to get very disheartening having Razorgore and his cronies stomp us night after night. I really thought it was a fun encounter once we finally got him on farm.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:00 pm

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Postby Hankthetank » Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:12 pm

Mortehl wrote:Twin emps.. Ugh.

RUN THE OTHER GODAMNED WAY.


Twin Emps you say? Try having healers scream: "YOU FORGOT TO TAKE OFF YOUR THUNDERFURY!"

friggin bugs.
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Postby Norrath » Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:45 pm

Ulushnar wrote:
Veneretio wrote:I think Kael and Vashj are pretty tough. (that being everyone just skips them now)


Yeah, Kael and Vashj are the guild breakers now. Back then though, the learning curve from Ragnaros to Razorgore and Vael was more like a Vertical line.


Goddamn Razorgore. GodDAMN Razorgore. So many deaths...

At least Vael let you blow your raid up.
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Postby PsiVen » Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:53 pm

Hankthetank wrote:
Mortehl wrote:Twin emps.. Ugh.

RUN THE OTHER GODAMNED WAY.


Twin Emps you say? Try having healers scream: "YOU FORGOT TO TAKE OFF YOUR THUNDERFURY!"

friggin bugs.


Our raid leaders had a macro to the effect of:

TAKE MULTISHOT OFF YOUR BARS
TAKE MULTISHOT OFF YOUR BARS
TAKE MULTISHOT OFF YOUR BARS
TAKE MULTISHOT OFF YOUR BARS
TAKE MULTISHOT OFF YOUR BARS

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Postby Brute » Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:01 am

I would like it if every time an expansion was released, all raid dungeons were retuned to be 10-man, max level raid dungeons that dropped a heroic token and had all their gear retuned to be at the equivalent of the lowest teir raid dungeon of the expansion. I.e., ZG, AQ20, MC, BWL, Nax, and AQ40 would all drop iLvl 115 epics, a badge of justice per boss, and be 10-man.

It would not be hard to retune most of the gear, too. Just change it to the current itemization trend for the intended class, then amplify it up to iLvl like they do the PVP gear now.

Then you could actually have incentive and means to run them. I've only set foot in BT to look around and just about get killed, and I'd love to be able to pug-10-man it just to see the content.

This WOULD result in a huge amount of redundant gear, but they already have the models and basic stats for most of it, and wouldn't some variation in how people look be a good thing?

Also, I think the max level dungeons should be part of some sort of attunement for getting into expansion content... like some sort of quest chain leading you through DM, Scholo, Strat, and UBRS requiring one run through each, and at the same time the gear curve shouldn't jump so dam fast between Old World and BC content. Then the Draconian Deflector you picked up in UBRS on your attunement would actually be worth keeping for a bit. Either this, or a similar retunement to the raid dungeons...

I just hate it that all of the best content is completely worthless now. The old dungeons felt like a small adventure rather than how it is now... pull pull pull boss. pull pull pull boss. pull pull pull boss. port to shat.
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Postby ulushnar » Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:36 am

Brute wrote:It would not be hard to retune most of the gear, too. Just change it to the current itemization trend for the intended class, then amplify it up to iLvl like they do the PVP gear now.


So, to use Hunters as an example, Giantstalker, Dragonstalker, Striker's Gear and Cryptstalker would have the same stats?

Cos ultimately that's what would happen if you said "all pre-tbc instances drop the same level Hunter gear".

And then you actually have to go about balancing the 40-mans for 10 men. I'm not sure how you'd balance Vael for only 10 men since you're guaranteed to lose two members at regular intervals. And Nefarian needs at least three tanks, one for each door and one free to grab the boss when he lands.

It could probably be done, but to make it worthwhile and balanced it would require work and playtesting and Blizzard's just not willing to spend that time and money on old content when they could be focussing on new content.
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Postby Brute » Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:48 am

Ulushnar wrote:So, to use Hunters as an example, Giantstalker, Dragonstalker, Striker's Gear and Cryptstalker would have the same stats?

Essentially, yeah. Just different skins. Spirit/str changed to AP/mana5, and obviously they'd have different set bonuses, and some would probably have more health/less ap than others. T3 was 9-peice, so there's a little variation there.

Cos ultimately that's what would happen if you said "all pre-tbc instances drop the same level Hunter gear".

And then you actually have to go about balancing the 40-mans for 10 men. I'm not sure how you'd balance Vael for only 10 men since you're guaranteed to lose two members at regular intervals. And Nefarian needs at least three tanks, one for each door and one free to grab the boss when he lands.

Stuff like this would be the hard part. These fights are designed to be done with 40, but they were also intended to be done w/ pre BC abilities. Nef could be accomplished w/ misdirect, val by reducing his health and lengthening the timer on the debuff, but you're right, blizz won't put the effort into reworking these fights, which i think is sad. The upside for them is that they'd only have to scale the fights down one time.

It could probably be done, but to make it worthwhile and balanced it would require work and playtesting and Blizzard's just not willing to spend that time and money on old content when they could be focussing on new content.


one thing worth mentioning is that for many players, the old 40-man raid dungeons, retuned for 10 people, would in fact be new content for new WoW players and casuals who could do UBRS but not MC/BWL. And it would be new content that they wouldn't have to put near as much thought into.
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Postby ulushnar » Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:57 am

Well it's like this:

Re-balancing this and making it good takes time. Sure you can say "reduce (Vael's) health and increase the timer" but would altering everything by a factor of four make a fight with the same feel as the old 40-man? They've been putting a lot of work into rebalancing Naxx for WotLK and we still don't know how successful they've been.

And who would go? You might get the old schoolers going a couple of times for nostalgia value and the newtimers going because they've never seen it before, but ultimately they'd become just another instance dropping broadly similar loot to other level 80 instances and becoming rapidly outgeared.

Ultimately, Blizz were to try and re-balance everything for 10-mans as you suggest then it would take time and money that could be better spent extending the content available. You may claim that they'd only need to rebalance it "just the one time", but what happens in two expansions time when the next person gets a jonesing for a lvl 100 version of MC?
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Postby Brute » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:05 am

Ulushnar wrote:Well it's like this:

Re-balancing this and making it good takes time. Sure you can say "reduce (Vael's) health and increase the timer" but would altering everything by a factor of four make a fight with the same feel as the old 40-man? They've been putting a lot of work into rebalancing Naxx for WotLK and we still don't know how successful they've been.

And who would go? You might get the old schoolers going a couple of times for nostalgia value and the newtimers going because they've never seen it before, but ultimately they'd become just another instance.

Ultimately, Blizz were to try and re-balance everything for 10-mans as you suggest then it would take time and money that could be better spent extending the content available. You may claim that they'd only need to rebalance it "just the one time", but what happens in two expansions time when the next person gets a jonesing for a lvl 100 version of MC?


Well when level 100 arrives, just scale the health/ap of the monsters up to the lowest raid dungeon level. You've already rigged the fight to work with 10 people, and after that its just a matter of multiplying attributes by a constant.

The fights wouldn't feel exactly the same, no. But at least they'd be there.

I look at it like this: when your guild does 10-mans on saturdays, they now have the option of doing ZA or Kara. Bringing up all the old raids would greatly increase the variety of avaliable dungeons, while at the same time offering about the same amount/quality of loot. I just get sick of running the same dungeons over and over and over and over again. Its like, would you like a burger or a cheeseburger? What if I want a steak sandwich or a corn dog? Too bad, go back to vanilla WoW for your corndogs, which by the way drop worthless purples. I think a lot of people would go to the old dungeons if it were worth their while. It would be just another way to get badges and low level epics to gear up for the new hard stuff.

You say that it would require a lot of work by blizzard, and yeah, it would, but if I were a blizzard designer, I would prefer putting about 25% of the work of creating a new dungeon into revitalizing an old raid so that everyone could and would play it. I mean, look at how much time they spent designing all of the old raid dungeons and instances, and they're all dead now. They might as well just lock the doors and delete them from the game.
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Postby ulushnar » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:15 am

Brute wrote:You say that it would require a lot of work by blizzard, and yeah, it would, but if I were a blizzard designer, I would prefer putting about 25% of the work of creating a new dungeon into revitalizing an old raid so that everyone could and would play it. I mean, look at how much time they spent designing all of the old raid dungeons and instances, and they're all dead now. They might as well just lock the doors and delete them from the game.


I disagree. Blizzard's philosophy with RPGs, from Diablo onwards, has always been "here's something cool, keep playing and we'll give you something cooler!"

In that sense, a backwards-looking "let's spend months retuning these instances so they're as much fun as our current ones whilst spewing out basically identical gear" doesn't feel like something they'd do.

The only reason we're getting Naxx now is because they felt it was rushed out pre-TBC to keep the raiders who'd finished AQ40 earlier than expected busy.
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Postby PsiVen » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:31 am

Fine tuning takes the vast majority of effort in creating raid content. Anything less than a perfectly tuned (by Blizzard's standards, mind you) new version would do nothing but destroy nostalgia. If you want it to be easy with little reward you might as well go run it now, because that's what you'll get.

Old content is old. Nobody wants to farm that stuff again, so it cannot have compelling rewards that aren't available elsewhere. People spent over a year in BWL. Raid content is stale within MONTHS of farming; just look at how many people hate BT now. The retreatment of Naxx, everybody's favorite raid instance that few got to finish and even fewer farmed enough to get tired of, has been controversial enough.

Basically what you are asking for is a badly tuned 80 BWL that drops nothing but gold and badges, doesn't make any lore sense at all, and will be rarely used anyway. All I have to say is, at least Auchenai Crypts has lore.
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Postby Brute » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:43 am

PsiVen wrote:Fine tuning takes the vast majority of effort in creating raid content. Anything less than a perfectly tuned (by Blizzard's standards, mind you) new version would do nothing but destroy nostalgia. If you want it to be easy with little reward you might as well go run it now, because that's what you'll get.

Old content is old. Nobody wants to farm that stuff again, so it cannot have compelling rewards that aren't available elsewhere. People spent over a year in BWL. Raid content is stale within MONTHS of farming; just look at how many people hate BT now. The retreatment of Naxx, everybody's favorite raid instance that few got to finish and even fewer farmed enough to get tired of, has been controversial enough.

Basically what you are asking for is a badly tuned 80 BWL that drops nothing but gold and badges, doesn't make any lore sense at all, and will be rarely used anyway. All I have to say is, at least Auchenai Crypts has lore.


Just because content is aged doesn't mean its old. It depends on who you're asking. I've been all the way through BWL only a couple of times, and never all the way through AQ40/20, and never saw past the first boss of Naxx. Many WoW players didn't even play pre-BC, meaning they've never seen any of the stuff at all. So to them, 1/2 of the dungeons and raids effectively don't even exist. I'm not asking for it to be easy, I'm asking for it to be relevant.

Why would it not make any lore sense? The leader of the Black Dragonflight should be a rough fight at max level, regardless of what that max level is. And I don't think it would be that hard to add some AP, DPS, and stamina to Ashkandi, Greatsword of the Brotherhood to make it a variant on a similar leveled sword found in whatever the first 10-man in WotLK would be, so that after you got through clearing it, you had some decent gear to show for it.

I can't believe that I'm the only one who would want to run BWL with nine friends as an alternative way of getting some gear and badges.
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:46 am

I see what you're saying, I'm just not sure it's realistic. As a player, I'd probably enjoy it, but as a developer, I'd say it'd be better to put resources into new dungeons, quests, zones, etc.
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