What's your cycle?

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Postby honorshammer » Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:30 pm

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=bm ... 5-5580&a=0

Consecration (Holy) 23 %
Melee 20 %
Holy Vengeance (Holy) 17 %
Holy Shield (Holy) 13 %
Judgement of Vengeance (Holy) 12 %
Judgement of Righteousness (Holy) 3 %
Vengeance (Holy) 2 % (Darkmoon Card)
Seal of Righteousness (Holy)2 %
Avenger's Shield (Holy) 0 %

This is from my guild first Curator kill. I was the Main Tank.

Yikes! I had a 20% miss rate. I may need Precision.
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Postby Lore » Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:35 pm

Lonso wrote:Unfortunately the WWS I had of me tanking Prince (which would play very well to HS's advantage) has expired. I had VR for more than 50% of the fight. As a generous guess we could say that HS would have accounted for 18% of my damage if I had him for the whole fight. With the increased threat on it, that would probably bring it up equal to Consecration. Again, I'm not trying to minimize the value of HS. I just believe our reliance on it in a single target situation isn't as drastic as it is commonly perceived to be.


Ah yes, this is very true. As far as actual threat done I usually find everything spread out fairly evenly.
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Postby Loladin » Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:16 pm

Vanifae has an irregular cycle. >.>
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Postby Alixander » Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:38 pm

Lonso wrote:
Personally, I think that HS accounts for the bulk of my threat generation


OH it does. :D And it rocks :twisted:


Not really. View this WWS report:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=11 ... -7932&a=24

You'll see that Holy Shield accounted for 9% of my damage against Void Reaver. Consecration was 24%, SoV 23%, JoV 19%. Even with the threat modifier on Holy Shield it's still a small portion of my total threat output. I love the spell, don't get me wrong. But I believe we are less dependant on it than most people believe and reports like this seem to back that up. Granted, HS would be a higher % if I had aggro the whole time but my point here is that our threat output without HS is pretty damn good.
While you are correct in saying that we can generate a lot of threat from other sources, things that need to be considered is that the percentages of total threat generated via Consecration, SoV, and JoV were much inflated due to the lack of threat generated by Holy Shield, from the shifting nature of Void Reaver's attacks. I would be interested in seeing your WWS reports from other bosses that are more focused.

Also, while Consecration is a fun ability, it's really mana-hungry, and I find that unless I'm staying at full mana using every other ability I have, I'm better off not using it.

Something else to remember about threat generation is that Holy Shield has an additional modifier on top of the bonus we get from Righteous Fury, which helps push it up even higher. Just a reminder on that one since sometimes I forget that.

EDIT: While I was posting this (had to step away from the comp) others replied and here's my thoughts on Honor's post:

Honorshammer wrote:http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=bm5sta2t5bm1a&s=5195-5580&a=0

Consecration (Holy) 23 %
Melee 20 %
Holy Vengeance (Holy) 17 %
Holy Shield (Holy) 13 %
Judgement of Vengeance (Holy) 12 %
Judgement of Righteousness (Holy) 3 %
Vengeance (Holy) 2 % (Darkmoon Card)
Seal of Righteousness (Holy)2 %
Avenger's Shield (Holy) 0 %

This is from my guild first Curator kill. I was the Main Tank.

Yikes! I had a 20% miss rate. I may need Precision.
Much like Void Reaver, Curator is also not a good fight to gauge Holy Shield's value. The reason why is during the Evocation periods he takes a large damage jump from incoming damage, but is not attacking. As a result Consecration, Melee, various Seals & Judgements, and other attacks that are not reactionary will generate an inflated percent skewing the numbers.

I would imagine that a good fight to judge HS's value on would be Attumen, after he mounts up. Pretty much any fight that is straight tank and spank, with no tricks would be a good one to judge it by, but those are rare these days.
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Postby Blaen99 » Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:54 pm

/cast judgement
/stopcasting
/cast Seal of Righteousness (Or other seal here)

Write it down. Use it. There is ZERO reason for people to get a swing that is not sealed after a judgement like some are claiming in this thread.

(Edit) At this rate, I'm going to be known as the 'macro king' from a conversation in game :(.
Last edited by Blaen99 on Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Vanifae » Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:58 pm

Blaen99 wrote:/cast judgement
/stopcasting
/cast Seal of Righteousness (Or other seal here)

Write it down. Use it. There is ZERO reason for people to get a swing that is not sealed after a judgement like some are claiming in this thread.

You are awesome.

I am making this macro when I get home.
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Postby Blaen99 » Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:59 pm

Vanifae wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:/cast judgement
/stopcasting
/cast Seal of Righteousness (Or other seal here)

Write it down. Use it. There is ZERO reason for people to get a swing that is not sealed after a judgement like some are claiming in this thread.

You are awesome.

I am making this macro when I get home.


Should I just make a post with all of my macros? :P

I've been using a lot of macros for months that people are either now "just discovering" or are not making the next logical step (I.e., some parts of this thread.)

That macro in particular is how you can simplify Maiden a large amount for a Pally tank.
Last edited by Blaen99 on Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Alixander » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:00 pm

I prefer to do my seals separate from my Judgements, because sometimes the timer for my Judgement is coming up, I need that extra threat boost (esp. early on in fights) and around the same time my Holy Shield is coming up. So I'll Judge > Holy Shield > Seal. One swing without a seal won't break me, but that Judgement might, and letting Holy Shield lapse is just not a viable option in raids.
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Postby Blaen99 » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:01 pm

Alixander wrote:I prefer to do my seals separate from my Judgements, because sometimes the timer for my Judgement is coming up, I need that extra threat boost (esp. early on in fights) and around the same time my Holy Shield is coming up. So I'll Judge > Holy Shield > Seal. One swing won't break me, but that Judgement might, and letting Holy Shield lapse is just not a viable option in raids.


I also have a

/cast Judgement
/stopcasting
/cast Holy Shield

macro for just these sort of situations.
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Postby Alixander » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:02 pm

Bah, you kids with your fancy macros and what not! Why back in my day... *wanders off mumbling and shaking his cane*
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Postby Blaen99 » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:03 pm

Alixander wrote:Bah, you kids with your fancy macros and what not! Why back in my day... *wanders off mumbling and shaking his cane*


Macros are the greatest things ever for paladin tanking - seriously.

Macros make silencing mobs significantly easier to tank, whether it is Maiden or Gruul.

(Edit) Come tot hink of it, I probably shouldn't mention that the full version of my macros has shift/alt modifiers to change the rank of holy shield or seals cast ~.^
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Postby Lore » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:15 pm

Blaen99 wrote:/cast judgement
/stopcasting
/cast Seal of Righteousness (Or other seal here)

Write it down. Use it. There is ZERO reason for people to get a swing that is not sealed after a judgement like some are claiming in this thread.


Sure there is, if the global cooldown from activating the seal means you can't put up HS right away.

Figure this rotation, starting at 0.0 seconds:

0.0 Holy Shield
1.5 Judgement+Reseal
3.0 Consecration

That puts Holy Shield available again at 10.0 seconds, Judgement available again at 9.5 seconds, Consecration available again at 11.0. If I were to judge and reseal the second Judgement came up, there would be a whole second where Holy Shield is down due to global cooldown. However, I can judge, hit HS, and then reseal after, so the rotation continues like this:

0.0 Holy Shield
1.5 Judgement+Reseal
3.0 Consecration
9.5 Judgement
10.0 Holy Shield
11.5 Seal
13.0 Consecration

Notice that there's a full 2-second gap where my seal isn't up purely because I have to prioritize global cooldown for Holy Shield or risk eating a crushing blow. As the rotation continues, I'll be able to judge and reseal immediately at 17.5 seconds, with Holy Shield again at 20 seconds and Consecrate right after that at 21.5 seconds. At that point the rotation will continue like this:

20.0 Holy Shield
21.5 Consecration
25.5 Judge+Reseal
30.0 Holy Shield
31.5 Consecration
33.5 Judge+Reseal

And from there we're back to Square 1. The next judgement will come at 41.5 seconds - pushing the next Consecration back to 43.0 - and the one after that will come at 49.5 with the reseal not possible until at least 51.5.
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Postby Blaen99 » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:19 pm

Yer assuming the GCD is 1.5 seconds, Lore.

I don't think anyone has proved it as 1 second or 1.5 seconds conclusively yet.
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Postby Lore » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:23 pm

Er, what?

Pretty sure 1.5 second global cooldown has been common public knowledge for a long time now. Especially since the patch where they reduced Rogue GCD to 1 second and left everyone else's at 1.5.
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Postby Blaen99 » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:24 pm

Lore wrote:Er, what?

Pretty sure 1.5 second global cooldown has been common public knowledge for a long time now. Especially since the patch where they reduced Rogue GCD to 1 second and left everyone else's at 1.5.


I believe that was a weapon swap change.

Additionally, several items have been posted from the Blue side - including GMs - stating the GCD was 1 second.

If there's info you have that I don't, please let me know. I "fell off the side of the truck" so to speak for a good 4 months or so about a month before the ExPack came out, so if new research came out in that time, I'm unaware of it.

(Edit) Which goes back to ye olde 'How the fuck does GCD get empirically tested?' question, on that note.
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