Discussion on Paladin Tanks in our Guild Chat

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Postby Levantine » Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:35 am

I just wanted to be the poster below Modus, lol.
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Postby Naeldon » Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:33 am

spelltank wrote:PS - Is he a dps warrior/was a dps warrior? It would explain a lot


I don't know. We're a newish guild so we have a high turnover of people at the moment and I've never seen him before. He's only level 32 but he must have some level 70 alts.

As for the pulling aggro part, I said to Priest1 in a whisper: "Surely if he's stealing aggro, he's a dead rogue?"
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Postby Manius » Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:27 am

If I steal aggro as DPS in a boss fight, I expect to die at no fault of the tank.

That said, there are DPS out there who have only done instances with tanks that overgeared them by enough that they couldn't hope to steal aggro. I've been in plenty of fights like that, and it's insanely liberating as DPS to just be able to let go with wild abandon.

So liberating, in fact, that some Retardps start to think it's the baseline and accepted truth.
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Postby Holyfuri » Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:18 am

Point these facts out to him...

1. Good dps CAN pull aggro off of any tank. They know how to not do it though.

2. Paladin tanks have tanked Archimonde, Illidan, Brutallus, Kael'thas, Kaz'rogal, and every other boss in the game as a progression kill. Paladins can tank anything in this game right now.

3. Threat isn't the only thing that makes a tank good.
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Postby Dragonzbane » Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:11 am

Holyfuri wrote:Point these facts out to him...

2. Paladin tanks have tanked Archimonde, Illidan, Brutallus, Kael'thas, Kaz'rogal, and every other boss in the game as a progression kill. Paladins can tank anything in this game right now.



Paladins have progression tanked every fight from HKM to KJ.

^This is exactly what you need to say the next time this topic comes up or warrior #2 starts talking.

I think it's kinda funny that you labeled him "#2".
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Postby Dapaladin » Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:48 am

Aren't paladins better then warriors on illidan since we won't eat crushings all the times because we dont need to hold back shield block waiting for a shear? Makes sense to me which only points out ignorance. That or has only seen pallies who werent quite sure mechanics/gear choices/skill rotation etc.
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Postby Holyfuri » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:34 am

Dapaladin wrote:Aren't paladins better then warriors on illidan since we won't eat crushings all the times because we dont need to hold back shield block waiting for a shear? Makes sense to me which only points out ignorance. That or has only seen pallies who werent quite sure mechanics/gear choices/skill rotation etc.


People argue over it, but from what WWS I've seen, etc. It looks as though a pally MT on Illidan is more reliable. He still doesn't eat through all your Holy shield charges, so you don't have to time it right. Not a huge difference to be honest, but a small advantage, imo.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:25 pm

I think Paladins will tend to have a bit of an edge on any fight that involves aggro resets ... but Paladins teach awful, awful habits to DPS.

I went AFK for a trash pull once to fix our DKP site -- the bear tank kept pulling -- and all our melee dps was dead when I came back.

AS >>> FF, and our DPS is far too used to mashing cooldowns .03478923 seconds into the fight because they're all trying to win DMs.
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Postby MichaelBerea » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:26 pm

The warrior and rogue in the OP's guild chat are ignorant, arrogant and rude. I really get sick of rogues who refuse to use Omen but pull aggro and then yell at me. And warriors who fight a paladin getting to tank are just way too full of themselves.

On the other hand, Warriors do have a few advantages.

The biggest issue is gear dependance. In 2.0 we wanted a warrior MT and a paladin OT as we did our first Karazhan run ever. There was no badge gear or craftable tankadin epics. The warrior had an easy time getting uncrushable from regular instances, quests and a couple crafted blues. On top of that a warrior had shield wall & last stand to help undergeared and inexperienced healers/dps.

Fortunately, it seems like Blizzard eliminated the gear gap after a few patches. Hopefully the more balanced gearing will continue in WotLK.

Other minor issues include Warriors being able to interrupt or reflect spells. They do not care about silences or spell reflect bubbles on mobs. Warriors with skill can handle fears without a priest in the raid. On the rare mob that dispells buffs dependance on Righteous Fury is a unique handicap. Thunderclap and Demoralizing Shout provide a lot of mitigation for a few encounters too.

Of course, all of this is very minor. It can be dealt with through raid composition and intelligent tactics.

Still warrior advantages and history are worth considering when developing those tactics. The former gear gap in particular is worth remembering during Beta testing of WotLK.
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Postby PsiVen » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:56 pm

You still have to time it a bit unless you want to get sheared sometimes. But you're sacrificing stamina and block value in particular for that 101.8%, and Illidan is definitely an EH>all boss. Simply put an equally skilled warrior is a better choice for progression tanking Illidan himself. I often see arguments otherwise. They are wrong.

Levantine wrote:I just wanted to be the poster below Modus, lol.


Fail. :P
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Postby Naeldon » Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:47 pm

Holyfuri wrote:Point these facts out to him...

1. Good dps CAN pull aggro off of any tank. They know how to not do it though.

2. Paladin tanks have tanked Archimonde, Illidan, Brutallus, Kael'thas, Kaz'rogal, and every other boss in the game as a progression kill. Paladins can tank anything in this game right now.

3. Threat isn't the only thing that makes a tank good.


I've not been home for a day or two so haven't been on WoW but I plan on pointing all this out to him when I see him. In fact, I am going to give him the link.

If I am going to share a guild with him then I think it's important he understands he's wrong. If we get into end game stuff, I don't want to have any issues.
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Postby Lookit » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:41 pm

PsiVen wrote:Simply put an equally skilled warrior is a better choice for progression tanking Illidan himself. I often see arguments otherwise. They are wrong.



While a warrior may have a slight advantage due to class mechanics, the Warrior in the OP simply states "A paladin will never be able to tank Illidan."

Which is demonstratably false ;)

When people make uninformed, sweeping statements passed off as fact that are provably false, really all you can do is try to be helpful and provide them with facts and information that they (obviously) aren't currently aware of. The other option is telling them they're wrong and trying to prove that they are "stupid" for not knowing something about an online videogame, which doesn't really accomplish much beyond letting the world see your petty side.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:57 am

Lookit wrote:
PsiVen wrote:Simply put an equally skilled warrior is a better choice for progression tanking Illidan himself. I often see arguments otherwise. They are wrong.



While a warrior may have a slight advantage due to class mechanics, the Warrior in the OP simply states "A paladin will never be able to tank Illidan."

Which is demonstratably false ;)

When people make uninformed, sweeping statements passed off as fact that are provably false, really all you can do is try to be helpful and provide them with facts and information that they (obviously) aren't currently aware of. The other option is telling them they're wrong and trying to prove that they are "stupid" for not knowing something about an online videogame, which doesn't really accomplish much beyond letting the world see your petty side.

Hm, I don't really see any advantage really. Exactly because we can block way more, the damage averages out as the same or less to our favor, AND we have better threat, burst for the aggro wipes. If any, our holy shield cd=duration may give you a small shearing chance, but timing HS is about as hard as timing Shield Block.

Sacrificing gear to tank Illidan? I sacrifice my tome slot(lightbringer->repentance), and that's about it.

Warriors and Paladins are equally capable of tanking Illidan.
Just that paladins take a little less damage, generate considerably superior threat, and warriors have more CDs for the enrages.
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Postby Naeldon » Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:45 am

spelltank wrote:Warrior 2 just seems like an idiot to be honest - expecting everyone to level up in the spec they plan to use at 70 is ridiculous, i mean, if you want to, great, but you cant expect every druid who wants to heal to go resto, and so on. I'd be willing to bet he didnt level as prot, or he's a dps warrior in which case his opinion about tanks is much less important.
He shouldnt hold anything against people for respeccing to level.

The fact that he thinks its easier for druids to tank illidan than paladins is just amazing. He just doesnt seem to have any idea what he's talking about.

PS - Is he a dps warrior/was a dps warrior? It would explain a lot


I just asked him and the answer I got surprised me a little bit. He said he's a Fury for levelling, but when he goes tank he'll respec to Prot. That sort of thing goes what he was saying.

I'll approach him about the subject of Paladin tanks later on. It's important to state that he's still my guildmate and all though he's wrong, I don't want to cause any drama. I think the world is plenty big enough for the both of us and then some, but I shall have to express his mistake else it might cause problems down the line (unlikely but still).
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