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Postby Lemondish » Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:56 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:He didn't say to add BV gear, he said if they don't add BV AND don't fix shield spec to use strength. He's exactly right, that scenario would be pretty stupid for blizzard.

Block Value still exists as a stat. I got a shield today as a quest reward that had additional block value on it. We don't know if we'll see it on gear for other item slots.

thegreatheed
First, stop yelling. There's far more to raid gear than tier gear, which is generally only 5 of our slots, and I wouldn't be surprised to see very similar stats on our tier gear, otherwise there will be much QQing.


I agree to your last point. Chances are the tier gear would have some stats tailored to the special differences between the tanks and set bonuses to further increase their individual awesomeness.

Interesting that Block Value still remains. Unfortunately, your fears of Blizzard being "stupid" in regards to the Shield Specialization issue are too late. Apparently Shield Spec in the Warrior talent has never scaled with the Block Value from strength either. It wasn't really a problem in end game raiding as most Warrior pieces now haven't any strength.


And more imporantly, the Str to BV ratio was 20:1. While it has always been dumb that strength was not included, it's not nearly as dumb as the combo of removing BV from non shields, changing the Str to BV ratio to 2:1, adding a bunch of Str to tank gear, and then still not changing shield spec.


Oh totally in that situation its pretty much uncalled for haha.

I do expect more changes to be forthcoming though, especially with the current situation of the tree being extremely bloated, some of the talents seeming kind of rubbish, and others having a hazy focus. Not to mention given the synergy of Holy with Retribution, expecting Holy Paladins to pick up Kings isn't going to fly anymore. Not to mention the chances that there's only going to be 3 Paladins in a raid, most likely covering all three specs. Blessing of Sanctuary becomes vividly useless in this scenario, as nobody will ever willingly give it up Kings for it. Or anything for that matter.
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Postby Tahl » Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:16 pm

Macha wrote:Why, exactly, would we want pure Blockvalue under any circumstance? Str is the superior stat for threat - and only a TINY bit worse for mitigation(each 100 BV will give 3.5BV more than each 100 Str would...).


Hm, maybe I'm missing something but straight BV on gear adds quite a bit more BV than strength does. Where'd you get 3.5 per 100? 100 BV * 1.3 (Shield Specialization) = 130 BV. 100 STR * 1.1 (Kings) * 1.15 (Divine Strength) = 126 STR = 63BV (Note: this BV from strength does NOT get multipled by 1.3 from Shield Spec)

STR grants extra BV at a 2:1 ratio. In this example you'd get 67BV more from 100 BV than 100 STR, over twice as much. It remains to be seen how STR and BV will each affect threat, but BV is the clear winner for mitigation and not by a tiny bit.

The original points stands though, that if there is very little BV on non-tier gear (since DKs can't use it) taking Shield Spec will not be worth it. It depends on how far they want to take their theory of "all tanks using the same gear". Will there still be drops with BV on it at all? If not, will the mechanics of Shield Spec change? Will they dramatically increase the BV on shields themselves, since those already exclude DKs? Until we have more info it's hard to say.
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Postby Sabindeus » Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:49 pm

Guys. It'll get changed. Seriously. Watch.
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Postby Gamingdevil » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:48 am

We believe (hope) it will get changed, but you can't expect Blizzard to come up with everything by themselves, that's what Beta is for. If we all laid back and thought "they'll change it by themselves, they're not that stupid" we might get unpleasantly surprised.
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Postby Arjuna » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:50 am

it would be nice if they didn't change it though...I need the points elsewhere! :P

damn bloated tree!
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Postby Gamingdevil » Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:31 am

True, at the moment I dropped those 8 points from my would-be WotLK build and I have almost everything I want.
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Postby thegreatheed » Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:04 am

I don't have any large points of disagreement even with those that challenged my post, but I'll just point this out.

There wasn't any spell damage tanking plate before tier gear in TBC.

I KNOW they've said we're gonna share gear. Which is good that they've made a lot of our abilities scales on AP or scale on both AP and SP. But assuming there's gonna be NO spell damage or block value on our tier gear is just an unfounded assumption at this point.

edit: I'm just saying, don't make all your choices based on "we're gonna share the same gear" because we may, and we may not.
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Postby DeadMilliken » Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:14 am

During our leveling and instance grinding...

I would HIGHLY suggest everyone not use avoidance talents...and switch out avoidance gear for threat or Shield block raiting/value.

I personally plan to break back out with an AoE damage set...(*good old Petrified Lichen Guard)
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Postby jere » Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:24 am

thegreatheed wrote:There wasn't any spell damage tanking plate before tier gear in TBC.


Well if you don't count the dungeon set, the few "of the knight" pieces that existed, and the few heroic tanking drops with spell dmg, then you would be correct. :wink:
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Postby thegreatheed » Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:29 am

jere wrote:
thegreatheed wrote:There wasn't any spell damage tanking plate before tier gear in TBC.


Well if you don't count the dungeon set, the few "of the knight" pieces that existed, and the few heroic tanking drops with spell dmg, then you would be correct. :wink:


And pieces like that could very well exist in Wotlk.
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Postby jere » Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:35 am

thegreatheed wrote:And pieces like that could very well exist in Wotlk.


Perhaps and perhaps not. We will have to wait and see. So far, I haven't seen "any" tanking gear of any kind drop (maybe it has, but no screen shots that I have seen yet). The only tank gear I have seen so far has been the crafted set.

I think it would be a bit presumptuous to say what gear we will be using, and what we use to level may not be what we use to raid with. We will have to wait and see.

Statements like "WE WON'T BE SHARING TIER GEAR WITH DK'S AND WARRIORS" might be a bit over zealous at this point (as would be the counter arguments). It is fun to speculate and discuss though.
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Postby thegreatheed » Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:09 am

Well, there will be class appropriate tier gear. Blizzard has stated they like the success of token and badge drops for gear, as it allows greater flexibility on boss drops.

I can't imagine them saying "we liked how this worked so well, that we're gonna drop it completely". So I'm going to say, my assumption that our tier gear will be tailored for paladins is more likely than other assumptions being made (specifically, tank gear will be just stam/str and nothing else).

And I agree, its presumptuous to say what gear we will be wearing. Except I know what gear I will be wearing when it releases.
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Postby Lemondish » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:07 am

thegreatheed wrote:Well, there will be class appropriate tier gear. Blizzard has stated they like the success of token and badge drops for gear, as it allows greater flexibility on boss drops.

I can't imagine them saying "we liked how this worked so well, that we're gonna drop it completely". So I'm going to say, my assumption that our tier gear will be tailored for paladins is more likely than other assumptions being made (specifically, tank gear will be just stam/str and nothing else).

And I agree, its presumptuous to say what gear we will be wearing. Except I know what gear I will be wearing when it releases.


I agree that our tier gear will be class specific, but to the extent that we'll simply be given avoidance stats we'd prefer. I do not expect intellect to jump into that, it'd be a waste imo. Chances are we'll also see interesting set bonuses which, with most of the plate wearing tank classes using similar stats, would need to be significant to warrant a separate tier set rather than just "Plate Tank Raiding Tier 7"
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Postby Arjuna » Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:51 pm

I'm just hoping our t7 isn't pink...

I want the warrior t3 skin on my tanking gear!!! :P
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