5/56/10 with AD and 3/5 Reckoning

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5/56/10 with AD and 3/5 Reckoning

Postby Maihes » Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:18 am

5 / 56 / 10

http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?pal ... 0155312321

*Reason to give up Redoubt and Shield Spec is from what I heard it doesn't effect BV from Str but this is what I have heard not what I tested so I may be wrong.

*Went with +15% Str since all the tank gear will likely be Str heavy for threat to all three tanks as well as BV for two of the tanks.

*3/5 Reckoning will probably go up in up time with how avoidance is looking to drop a little lower then what we use now (again what people comment on no personal experience going through files)

*Imp Judgement is pointless since we have more cooldowns to watch we can warrant it more.

My main spec is Ret and I raid in a guild working on Brut right now. I also was the Hyjal tank and few other things (including Hyjal bosses).

If I am completely wrong on Shield Spec being worth 8 points feel free to let me know. But I think 15% Str > 30% BV (not from Str) and Proc Redoubt.
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Postby Yadard » Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:46 am

I'd drop Kings for 1/2 Imp. Holy Shield to keep 8 charges, but otherwise it looks like something I'd give a go to.
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Postby thegreatheed » Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:46 am

I would have to say redoubt + shield spec will be better for a threat/leveling build than toughness + imp devo aura.

moar holy shield slam!
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Postby Legionp » Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:54 am

I like it. Although until I see how I run instances (how many mobs i pull at once) I may not want to drop the imp HS. Currently I run 40/21 and I don't really miss AD that much. Again, I'll have to see how hard/fast bosses are hitting. Could be 5 extra points to move around.
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Postby Equitas » Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:55 am

id drop kings(let holy palas do that), drop imp devo aura, drop AD, and reput those points in SS/Redoubt or someplace else =/
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Postby Lemondish » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:07 am

thegreatheed wrote:I would have to say redoubt + shield spec will be better for a threat/leveling build than toughness + imp devo aura.

moar holy shield slam!


That really depends. I personally haven't seen any gear with Block Value on it from the expansion, and we probably won't. The Str to BV change makes it less of an issue. Since shield spec doesn't increase the amount of BV gained from Str, it becomes less desirable. And thats where everything we don't like about redoubt stands on its own without shield spec.
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Postby Sark » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:09 am

So many people seem quick to drop kings. But with the ret 15 pointer and even the 23 pointer as an incentive many holy paladins will probably be giving the prot tree a miss come expansion.

Do you really want to be without your 10% stat buff come heroics/10 mans perhaps even 25 mans?
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Postby Lemondish » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:10 am

Equitas wrote:id drop kings(let holy palas do that), drop imp devo aura, drop AD, and reput those points in SS/Redoubt or someplace else =/


eh...I don't know if its possible to drop Kings and just assume the Holy Paladin will be interested in spending 11 points in a tree that doesn't benefit them much.

Consider this...the early Retribution talents are way more suited to the new Holy paladin.
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Postby thegreatheed » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:15 am

Lemondish wrote:
thegreatheed wrote:I would have to say redoubt + shield spec will be better for a threat/leveling build than toughness + imp devo aura.

moar holy shield slam!


That really depends. I personally haven't seen any gear with Block Value on it from the expansion, and we probably won't. The Str to BV change makes it less of an issue. Since shield spec doesn't increase the amount of BV gained from Str, it becomes less desirable. And thats where everything we don't like about redoubt stands on its own without shield spec.


if blizz does away with block value gear, and doesn't fix shield spec, i'll be sorely disappointed in their design team, because that doesn't make sense. AT ALL.

besides, we haven't even seen half of the currently possible drops in wotlk, and no 80 gear.

on this tangent, WE WON'T BE SHARING TIER GEAR WITH DK'S AND WARRIORS. I see so many people saying how we're gonna share gear with them... and then base a guess off of that assumption. sure, regular boss drops may or may not be optimized to a particular class, but tier gear will sure as heck be optimized for paladins. lets keep the pointless baseless GUESSES to a minimum until we've seen the tier gear. /rant off.
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Postby Sharlos » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:12 am

thegreatheed wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
thegreatheed wrote:I would have to say redoubt + shield spec will be better for a threat/leveling build than toughness + imp devo aura.

moar holy shield slam!


That really depends. I personally haven't seen any gear with Block Value on it from the expansion, and we probably won't. The Str to BV change makes it less of an issue. Since shield spec doesn't increase the amount of BV gained from Str, it becomes less desirable. And thats where everything we don't like about redoubt stands on its own without shield spec.


if blizz does away with block value gear, and doesn't fix shield spec, i'll be sorely disappointed in their design team, because that doesn't make sense. AT ALL.

besides, we haven't even seen half of the currently possible drops in wotlk, and no 80 gear.

on this tangent, WE WON'T BE SHARING TIER GEAR WITH DK'S AND WARRIORS. I see so many people saying how we're gonna share gear with them... and then base a guess off of that assumption. sure, regular boss drops may or may not be optimized to a particular class, but tier gear will sure as heck be optimized for paladins. lets keep the pointless baseless GUESSES to a minimum until we've seen the tier gear. /rant off.


well considering atm i'm only wearing a single peice of tier gear, its a fair assumption to make.
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Postby Lemondish » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:19 am

thegreatheed wrote:if blizz does away with block value gear, and doesn't fix shield spec, i'll be sorely disappointed in their design team, because that doesn't make sense. AT ALL.


I may be woefully mistaken, but I believe it worked that way for the warrior equivalent talent since its inception.

thegreatheed wrote:besides, we haven't even seen half of the currently possible drops in wotlk, and no 80 gear.

on this tangent, WE WON'T BE SHARING TIER GEAR WITH DK'S AND WARRIORS. I see so many people saying how we're gonna share gear with them... and then base a guess off of that assumption. sure, regular boss drops may or may not be optimized to a particular class, but tier gear will sure as heck be optimized for paladins. lets keep the pointless baseless GUESSES to a minimum until we've seen the tier gear. /rant off.


You're right, tier gear may still be a factor. But as it stands, non tier pieces and the gear we'll use to level will remain equally viable to each tank with small personal preferences shaking up the mix of course. We'll share gear with DKs and Warriors for 10 levels, and up until 80 we won't have tier pieces. So are you expecting to just 'endure' until then, when we'll have to wait on highly specialized pieces to become viable once again?

The ideas we're positing are not pointless nor baseless, they're extremely good hypothesis and theorycrafting based upon the combination of known game mechanics, known drops, and a deep understanding of the newer talents and abilities. Not to mention information directly from the developers.
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Postby Macha » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:45 am

thegreatheed wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
thegreatheed wrote:I would have to say redoubt + shield spec will be better for a threat/leveling build than toughness + imp devo aura.

moar holy shield slam!


That really depends. I personally haven't seen any gear with Block Value on it from the expansion, and we probably won't. The Str to BV change makes it less of an issue. Since shield spec doesn't increase the amount of BV gained from Str, it becomes less desirable. And thats where everything we don't like about redoubt stands on its own without shield spec.


if blizz does away with block value gear, and doesn't fix shield spec, i'll be sorely disappointed in their design team, because that doesn't make sense. AT ALL.



Strength:
-affects Hammer of the Righteous, Shield of righteousness, Judgements, Seals, Autoattack
-scales with kings and a str talent

Blockvalue
-scales with one talent(SLIGHTLY better than str)
-affects Shield of righteousness ONLY

Why, exactly, would we want pure Blockvalue under any circumstance? Str is the superior stat for threat - and only a TINY bit worse for mitigation(each 100 BV will give 3.5BV more than each 100 Str would...).

Yes, we will be sharing gear. We will have slightly different set boni on tier gear, true, but I doubt the rest is different - and that is a good thing.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:23 pm

Macha wrote:
thegreatheed wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
thegreatheed wrote:I would have to say redoubt + shield spec will be better for a threat/leveling build than toughness + imp devo aura.

moar holy shield slam!


That really depends. I personally haven't seen any gear with Block Value on it from the expansion, and we probably won't. The Str to BV change makes it less of an issue. Since shield spec doesn't increase the amount of BV gained from Str, it becomes less desirable. And thats where everything we don't like about redoubt stands on its own without shield spec.


if blizz does away with block value gear, and doesn't fix shield spec, i'll be sorely disappointed in their design team, because that doesn't make sense. AT ALL.



Strength:
-affects Hammer of the Righteous, Shield of righteousness, Judgements, Seals, Autoattack
-scales with kings and a str talent

Blockvalue
-scales with one talent(SLIGHTLY better than str)
-affects Shield of righteousness ONLY

Why, exactly, would we want pure Blockvalue under any circumstance? Str is the superior stat for threat - and only a TINY bit worse for mitigation(each 100 BV will give 3.5BV more than each 100 Str would...).

Yes, we will be sharing gear. We will have slightly different set boni on tier gear, true, but I doubt the rest is different - and that is a good thing.


He didn't say to add BV gear, he said if they don't add BV AND don't fix shield spec to use strength. He's exactly right, that scenario would be pretty stupid for blizzard.

Block Value still exists as a stat. I got a shield today as a quest reward that had additional block value on it. We don't know if we'll see it on gear for other item slots.

thegreatheed
First, stop yelling. There's far more to raid gear than tier gear, which is generally only 5 of our slots, and I wouldn't be surprised to see very similar stats on our tier gear, otherwise there will be much QQing.
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Postby Lemondish » Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:31 pm

Fridmarr wrote:He didn't say to add BV gear, he said if they don't add BV AND don't fix shield spec to use strength. He's exactly right, that scenario would be pretty stupid for blizzard.

Block Value still exists as a stat. I got a shield today as a quest reward that had additional block value on it. We don't know if we'll see it on gear for other item slots.

thegreatheed
First, stop yelling. There's far more to raid gear than tier gear, which is generally only 5 of our slots, and I wouldn't be surprised to see very similar stats on our tier gear, otherwise there will be much QQing.


I agree to your last point. Chances are the tier gear would have some stats tailored to the special differences between the tanks and set bonuses to further increase their individual awesomeness.

Interesting that Block Value still remains. Unfortunately, your fears of Blizzard being "stupid" in regards to the Shield Specialization issue are too late. Apparently Shield Spec in the Warrior talent has never scaled with the Block Value from strength either. It wasn't really a problem in end game raiding as most Warrior pieces now haven't any strength.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:39 pm

Lemondish wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:He didn't say to add BV gear, he said if they don't add BV AND don't fix shield spec to use strength. He's exactly right, that scenario would be pretty stupid for blizzard.

Block Value still exists as a stat. I got a shield today as a quest reward that had additional block value on it. We don't know if we'll see it on gear for other item slots.

thegreatheed
First, stop yelling. There's far more to raid gear than tier gear, which is generally only 5 of our slots, and I wouldn't be surprised to see very similar stats on our tier gear, otherwise there will be much QQing.


I agree to your last point. Chances are the tier gear would have some stats tailored to the special differences between the tanks and set bonuses to further increase their individual awesomeness.

Interesting that Block Value still remains. Unfortunately, your fears of Blizzard being "stupid" in regards to the Shield Specialization issue are too late. Apparently Shield Spec in the Warrior talent has never scaled with the Block Value from strength either. It wasn't really a problem in end game raiding as most Warrior pieces now haven't any strength.


And more imporantly, the Str to BV ratio was 20:1. While it has always been dumb that strength was not included, it's not nearly as dumb as the combo of removing BV from non shields, changing the Str to BV ratio to 2:1, adding a bunch of Str to tank gear, and then still not changing shield spec.
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