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After all the buffs, I can't help but feel a sense of loss

All things related to the expansion

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Postby moduspwnens » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:48 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Vanifae wrote:Frankly I am happy, fuck the old days.

I never needed to be special to play this game, I just like paladins, big armor, huge shields, and being the defender of my friends.

I don't need to be a special duckling that will blossom into a swan.

I just want to kill stuff and take its loot and feel cool doing it.


Agreed 100%


I lean much more toward this emotion than the one expressed by the OP.
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Postby Sharlos » Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:53 pm

moduspwnens wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
Vanifae wrote:Frankly I am happy, fuck the old days.

I never needed to be special to play this game, I just like paladins, big armor, huge shields, and being the defender of my friends.

I don't need to be a special duckling that will blossom into a swan.

I just want to kill stuff and take its loot and feel cool doing it.


Agreed 100%


I lean much more toward this emotion than the one expressed by the OP.

Well duur.

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Postby ulushnar » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:16 pm

Fuck dat noise, I'm with Vanifae.

I rolled a Paladin because I wanted to tank. I'd tried a Warrior and hated it, I'd tried a Druid, and whilst I liked it, I disliked levelling as Feral, it was too single-target for my liking.

I had a raidgroup that was desperate for tanks and a Paladin was the best bet. And levelling was fun. I approximated (and in places even exceeded) the speed of levelling I had with my hunter by pulling groups of mobs, laying down some righteous consecration and going to town.

I'm not gonna miss the pre-2.3 days when I routinely had to bring my Hunter to Gruul after HKM because the other two tanks had better HP and Avoidance since they didn't need to stack BR through the roof.

It's been fun in a masochistic kinda way theorycrafting a 2-300 hp increase whilst retaining uncrushability, but I'm not gonna miss it when WotLK comes around and my only goals are stacking Health and BV through the roof whilst weilding the slowest, nastiest one-hander possible.

By the looks of things, by the time we hit 80, we'll have true parity. And for the many Pally tanks out there wanting to break in to big-time raiding, that's a nice place to be in.
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Postby ulushnar » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:36 pm

Hmmm, coffee before rants helps.

Protection Paladins aren't hard, they're just needlessly obscure. Whoever figured out the combat table and what it required for us to get uncrushable: they were the pioneer. Everyone else who followed did so in his shoes with a simple arithmetic problem: how do I make the numbers add up to 102.4%? Of course there were wrinkles to this: Stamina or Avoidance? Spell damage or "tanking" weapon? Hit/spellhit/Expertise?

And now that problems gone and Paladins are free for the first time. Stamina or Avoidance? Doesn't matter, but Stamina's gonna be the choice of many. Spellpower weapon or big slow hitting stick? Either will work great now. Even the hit/spellhit conundrum's gone.

It feels like we're being treated like a real tanking class rather than a shoehorned-in, half-assed gimmick spec.
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Postby Dorvan » Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:35 am

There are some of us crazies out there that liked gearing as a complex optimization problem ;)

Of course, you do make a decent point that half the fun was figuring out how the mechanics worked in the first place. In some ways, the Beta is the most interesting part of an expansion cycle....the rest is simple the natural consequence of design decisions made at that stage of development (a gross oversimplfication, I know)
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Postby nicolax » Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:37 am

I feel that loss of a challenge as well, well in a personal point of view.

I decided to tank as soon as i hit 70 and it was hard to get accepted. Finding how to tank “untankable” bosses for a paladin and convince players that you can do it was great and stressful.

All the way, from 5-man and heroics to kara, gruul, maghteridon and ssc/tk i have tried my best and climbed the guild ranks to become an officer, then a raid-leader when we were about to get ready to kill Vashj. Using my status but also all my experience, i have then raid-leaded almost all raids, made the tactics to use and tanked for progression fights Lady Vashj, Kael’thas in TK, Zul’jin and all BT/MH bosses for progression fight minus Azgalor and Mother Shahraz (i thought a druid was better for those hard-hitting bosses when you don’t overgear the encounter).

There is only another horde raiding guild at our level of progression on my server and they use only tauren warriors for progression fight, but still, main tanking almost all bosses in my guild never hindered us and we progressed at the same speed, sometimes even faster (archimonde for example :)). Whatever is said about tanking classes, damage reduction, threat or whatever is just not important. I have seen it many times, knowledge, fast reactions, excellent global awareness, focus and preparation > class and if you have competent players in your raid it’s a win. In the end, i still main tank very often but i rotate more with my co-tanks so everyone can get the experience and improve their skills. It’s nice however to reach a point where no one ever think you can’t do it. I even had to fight sometimes for my warriors co-tanks and convince players in my guild they can tank just as well as i do -_-

Back to the topic, in TBC there is no more challenge for now, i still tank weekly bosses that mana-burns, silence, fear, enrage... but it has become routine and there is no more people to convince about paladin tanking. I guess the new challenges in Wotlk, for me, will still be to main-tank the progression fights, raid-lead and help my guild to progress through the raid content.

But if you want a real challenge, you could just do with a DK what you did with a paladin. Learn, progress, struggle to get a spot in raids and tank bosses. They are maybe very good at tanking, time will tell, but until they get accepted you can probably get that feeling of being the underdog back.

Dorvan wrote:There are some of us crazies out there that liked gearing as a complex optimization problem ;)


i agree :P it is big fun to change gear on almost every fight (downside is the bags in your bank being almost always full :wink: )
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Postby Fahsky » Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:50 am

I'm sort of in between nostalgia & 'it's about $%&^ing time'. I think the handful (or more) times where I've been fiercely glaring at my defense rating of 489, or pondering if I should eat the spell dmg or stam food, stuff like that puts me in the good riddance to old rubbish category. And all the healers in random pugs that complained I was 'squishy' - yeah, well, I was tanking five times what a warr would, with a considerably smaller HP pool. XP

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Postby ulushnar » Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:51 am

Dorvan wrote:There are some of us crazies out there that liked gearing as a complex optimization problem ;)


Oh i know. But by the same token, the optimization problem doesn't go away just because we're no longer looking for 102.4%.

Blizz is clearly wanting us to stack Stamina and BV in the expansion, but how far will that carry us?

How much Avoidance can we practically expect to have? How much avoidance should we aim to have. Between Sunwell Radience and the threat benefits of EH/mitigation stats, Blizz is clearly trying to steer us away from the idea of stacking horrific amounts of Dodge/Parry.
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Postby Amran20 » Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:52 am

Yes, I too liked that sense of "What? Paladins can't tank that?". And tank it I did. It was amazing just tanking for pugs who would get so PISSED that a Paladin dare have the audacity to try and tank things, and then after the most flawless heroic in their life, they convert.

And yet, with each convert, more and more Pally tanks started popping up, though I was the top dog, Alliance side. I'm pretty sure my guilds success in Hyjal was what made other Alliance guilds force a paladin to get prot gear for Hyjal trash. Hell, i think we finished the instance in 2 or 3 weeks, lol.

Yes, strange as it is, I miss the irrational hatred, I miss the solitude of being "that one Paladin that doesn't suck".

Yeah. Those were the days. Who knows, I think most people will roll a DK to DPS, not tank, so maybe it'll be the next underdog.
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Postby Kitsuna » Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:15 am

Vorps wrote:At least we got to be a part of the era in which Protection Paladins bloomed.


That sums of my feelings pretty well. I feel lucky we got to be a part of the whole struggle to get paladins tanking parity. We got to change minds one at a time, put our heads together to make our borked spec work, and for me it was a blast. It is satisfying to finally be where we are, and I wouldn't change it for anything. But I do think I'll miss this era where we all banded together to make it happen.

Kitsuna is my one and only character, so for me the ol' tankadin struggle is part of what WoW is. It's strange to look at the expansion and know it won't be there. Finding out what it is like to play a "normal" wow spec is the next great unknown I guess.

(Plus Kitsuna, you'll now have people begging you to play Ret. You must have some giddiness about that. ;p)


Hehe. Thinking on it, I think I went ret when I did precisely because it was the only black sheep spec left. Now that ret is going to be an accepted spec, I'm going to have to figure out whether I enjoy tanking or dpsing more when the whole underdog complex is out of the picture.

(Good to hear from ya Vorps! I went to see how you were doing in the armory but you are specced healbot ;(
Last edited by Kitsuna on Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Arjuna » Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:21 am

started to tank with my pally mostly because there was some guildies that doubted that it could be done...so i showed them! :D

now they don't like warrior tanking...hahaha!
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Postby Vorps » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:11 am

Kitsuna wrote:I'm going to have to figure out whether I enjoy tanking or dpsing more when the whole underdog complex is out of the picture.

(Good to hear from ya Vorps! I went to see how you were doing in the armory but you are specced healbot ;(


Here's to hoping they have the multi-spec saving feature in by the time WotLK ships. Allowing spec changes w/o fees is arguably something I look forward to even more so than class buffs. Being able to switch things up and utilize versatility is what the essence of the Paladin is all about. Why choose? I'll be estatic when I can flip between DPS/Tanking or Healing/Tanking for various actives that occur between raids. If only I had a dollar for every group I had to turn down because I just specced ret for PvP 5 mins ago...

But yeah, lame-o Holy. I'm pretty much in same state. Joined new guild as Holy to finish out BT, and decided to just break 'til Wrath. Got to wow them a bit as prot when their tanks couldn't make it once, and I picked up a Cat's Edge and Tome of the Lightbringer, which will be fun to play with once WotLK releases. +372 Shield of Righteousness represent!

Arjuna wrote:now they don't like warrior tanking...hahaha!


Hell, I've got Warriors even glad when I'm tanking. It makes their job much more relaxing.

Gonna be interesting to see how that power struggle works out in WotLK.
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Postby Ruex » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:45 am

Made me feel great when I poped into a quick run through SV, and the Healer said "hey a Pali tank! Awesome, easy mode".
I asked him later how I was to heal. He replied: "Boring actually."

Not bad for just a bunch of quest blues.

but thats been possible b/c of the people here: all the write ups, Guides, supports that I stayed on as a prot Pali, and didn't stay retribution like i planned. All these people are the reason why my warrior tank is still 34. I look at tanking as the warrior, and its unappealing now. At one point I was asking on a Forum (not this one) should I halt the pali, and level the warrior if i wanted to tank? I'm glad I was ignored, and that no one answered.

This has to be one of the Best sites I have seen as a commnuity site for a game. And due to the rush of the night shift I am on, I surf alot.

Big thanks to Maintankadin. You've help make the class I wanted to play, the class I love to play.
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Postby Taraxacum » Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:26 am

There is something about about playing the 'underdog' I think. Not sure whether it is because it requires more thought or just being that bit different.

My pally tank is a alt but has always been Prot since lvl 10, my main is a rogue but even that has been assassination spec since lvl 10. I certainly see LOADS more pally tanks than I see mutilate rogues - OK I'll be honest here - I have not yet seen another raiding Mutilate Rogue on my server (must be some though I am sure)!

It's been fun breaking peoples conceptions that Pallys cant tank and Mutilate Rogues cant DPS (though still having to work on the later despite WWS!). In some ways I hope this does not change to much with the expansion.
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Postby Barathorn » Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:30 am

Io.Draco wrote:
Spiggless wrote:. Funny thing is that most of the people I was arguing with never made it passed Karazhan.

We take this game seriously...


Similar thing did happen for those I was arguing in my first guild , now its funny to watch their armories with their crapy tier 4 guild , while im sitting here in the best gear from mh/bt ( WTB THOSE FUCKING BOOTS BTW ) and some SWP gear , the one who laughs last laughs best eh? :D


Don't forget that for some of us, being in a crappy T4 guild is what we want and are comfortable with, achievement in an online game means little to anyone other than yourself at the end of the day, its just pixels. If you think differently to that then sorry you are misguided by what is important in life.

However I can understand why you feel that way, because of what you went through. I have been a Tankadin for a long time as well and even though I haven't played at the same level you have [I am in some crappy T4 guild as you put it], I have had exactly the same comments but I just ignored the people saying them and got on with it. I just don't see the need to belittle people for some bizarre sense of gratification about how imba you are compared to them because they haven't progressed as far as you.

To the Op, I will miss the struggles also, and the constant maths and doing runs for drops that never appeared until you didn't need them. I remember when a well geared, all in blues Tankadin was an almost non existant sight. I am happy we got some changes and although I will look back with good memories, I look forward now to wiping the floor with 10 mobs at a time while my DPS goes apeshit and my healer laughs hysterically, doing it with tools that are meant to be used for that purpose.

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