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0/59/12 New Cookie Cutter Wrath MT Build

All things related to the expansion

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Postby QuantumDelta » Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:39 pm

Well that depends on a lot of things.
In any regard retri really doesn't have spare points for imp ret aura, and there are a lot of fights where conc aura just isn't needed, let alone imp conc aura which is almost universally useless (erm, any classes still need push back beyond the base of conc in WOTLK? Spriests finally got theirs ..and they were the last with hunters?) unless you're fighting something which counterspells.

Ret probably wont even be picking up kings considering the really skill ones might even try seal-weaving due to the new judgement system (SoV/SoB that is).

Holy will be in the Ret tree ANYWAY because of Conviction, 5 extra percent spell crit is far too good to pass up considering it's 'completely spare' points, so they may as well get imp ret aura whilst they're there, for pve builds at least (PvP builds will feature imp conc aura naturally along with a few other talent choice changes).
It's just 2 points of which 1 is already _completely_ spare.

retri on the otherhand unless they're gonna drop POJ have 1 spare if they skip soc?
If they're gonna drop a point in POJ there's not much point in them having it anyway, but movement speed is conditionally also a DPS talent and one that's hard to measure in value.

Imp Conc however is a PvP talent born and bred.
It's the entire reason most Holy Arenadins run with so many points in Prot, nothing to do with HoJ or stun resistance.

As for redoubt/ss.
Whilst SS is a fairly decent talent, the moment you are uncrushable redoubt becomes a non-talent.
To waste 8 talent points on 30% shield block value that's non-multiplicative ....
Well. Personal preference will be where that comes in I guess, but imo prot is far too bloated to be sinking 8 points into what should honestly be a 2 point condensed talent.
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Postby Vesstair » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:30 pm

QuantumDelta wrote:Well that depends on a lot of things.
In any regard retri really doesn't have spare points for imp ret aura, and there are a lot of fights where conc aura just isn't needed, let alone imp conc aura which is almost universally useless (erm, any classes still need push back beyond the base of conc in WOTLK? Spriests finally got theirs ..and they were the last with hunters?) unless you're fighting something which counterspells.

Ret probably wont even be picking up kings considering the really skill ones might even try seal-weaving due to the new judgement system (SoV/SoB that is).

Holy will be in the Ret tree ANYWAY because of Conviction, 5 extra percent spell crit is far too good to pass up considering it's 'completely spare' points, so they may as well get imp ret aura whilst they're there, for pve builds at least (PvP builds will feature imp conc aura naturally along with a few other talent choice changes).
It's just 2 points of which 1 is already _completely_ spare.

retri on the otherhand unless they're gonna drop POJ have 1 spare if they skip soc?
If they're gonna drop a point in POJ there's not much point in them having it anyway, but movement speed is conditionally also a DPS talent and one that's hard to measure in value.

Imp Conc however is a PvP talent born and bred.
It's the entire reason most Holy Arenadins run with so many points in Prot, nothing to do with HoJ or stun resistance.

As for redoubt/ss.
Whilst SS is a fairly decent talent, the moment you are uncrushable redoubt becomes a non-talent.
To waste 8 talent points on 30% shield block value that's non-multiplicative ....
Well. Personal preference will be where that comes in I guess, but imo prot is far too bloated to be sinking 8 points into what should honestly be a 2 point condensed talent.


I think I don't quite understand what you're saying. First, you say ret doesn't have points for imp ret aura, but they probably won't pick up kings, which means they'll be getting 6 points out of prot compared to the build you listed. It would seem to me that if the tankadin can throw kings, then the ret can drop 1 point from persuit of justice (if it's a fight where melee need to move around, it's probably threat-sensitive with the tank moving around too; I can't see 2/2 making a HUGE difference to their damage instead of just moving as fast as everyone else), and then they have the points for both 5/5 imp BoM and 2/2 imp ret aura.

As to holy being in ret anyway, so why not pick up imp ret aura.... well, I don't know the precidence of auras (whether 40 yard auras overwrite 30 yard, whether imp ret overwrites ret with swift retribution, etc), but it seems like at best, no one gains anything with a holydin running ret aura, and at worst a bunch of people could lose out on 3% haste and 2% dmg. Am I missing something? o.0

As for the holy points being completely to spare, getting 2/2 enlightened judgements would probably be a good place to start. There are quite a few fights where ranged are generally at 30 yards to melee, and moving closer can be dangerous (first one that comes to mind, prince... but there are more in 25 mans).

As for imp conc being a PVP talent holy goes into prot for.... well, that may be great, but the talent is being moved to the holy tree. They can get it without wasting any points. I can't reliably speak to it's value as a PvE talent since I've never really healed, but I can say that.

As for redoubt/shield spec; that's assuming we're gonna be shooting for uncrushability. We still don't know if crushing blows have been taken out. As for the shield block value not being multiplicitive.... I don't really get what you mean. My understanding is you take whatever your shield block value would be without it, and multiply it by 1.3 to get your new value. It multiplies anything which increases your SBV. I would say that generally getting a shield block value of about 10% of what a boss hits for is pretty consistent in TBC, and if that trend continues and it's what we use to tank bosses, that means we would block 13% per hit. I wouldn't write that mitigation off just yet, especicially with it sounding like a good amount of TPS.
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Postby Karock » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:09 pm

Let's all pretend that all bosses are tank and spank right now and will always be tank and spank, they couldn't possible have, i dunno, phases where they WON'T be tanked and will do lots of AoE damage or anything else mildly creative. I mean i can't think of any examples of bosses like that right now even so OBVIOUSLY wotlk won't have them or anything new.

Hence Divine Guardian is worthless, l2p everyone.
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Postby Karock » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:11 pm

Also Quantum I believe that Ele shaman still lack any form of passive spell pushback prevention (no a proc on crit =! passive). I could have missed it but I don't think it's there.
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Postby Vesstair » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:26 pm

Karock wrote:Let's all pretend that all bosses are tank and spank right now and will always be tank and spank, they couldn't possible have, i dunno, phases where they WON'T be tanked and will do lots of AoE damage or anything else mildly creative. I mean i can't think of any examples of bosses like that right now even so OBVIOUSLY wotlk won't have them or anything new.

Hence Divine Guardian is worthless, l2p everyone.


Yes, Divine Guardian has possible uses. However, in 90% of encounters we have seen previously, there is no real chance for the MT to bubble. While encounters in WotLK will certainly be somewhat different than those we have seen, most of them will probably be mostly the same.... and spending 2 talent points on something which might be useful sometimes instead of something which will be useful all the time doesn't really make sense. Basically, we can still respec.
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Postby Sepaticaus » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:30 pm

Vesstair wrote:
Karock wrote:Let's all pretend that all bosses are tank and spank right now and will always be tank and spank, they couldn't possible have, i dunno, phases where they WON'T be tanked and will do lots of AoE damage or anything else mildly creative. I mean i can't think of any examples of bosses like that right now even so OBVIOUSLY wotlk won't have them or anything new.

Hence Divine Guardian is worthless, l2p everyone.


Yes, Divine Guardian has possible uses. However, in 90% of encounters we have seen previously, there is no real chance for the MT to bubble. While encounters in WotLK will certainly be somewhat different than those we have seen, most of them will probably be mostly the same.... and spending 2 talent points on something which might be useful sometimes instead of something which will be useful all the time doesn't really make sense. Basically, we can still respec.


This is very true actually. I mean what times when you're tanking you will have time to bubble since if you become immune a target will go to other players and wipe the raid. This seems to be more tailored for Holy or Retribution Paladins.
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:52 pm

More aimed towards OTs imo, but I agree that it's probably to situational to be useful....
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Postby Karock » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:24 am

Sepaticaus wrote:
Vesstair wrote:
Karock wrote:Let's all pretend that all bosses are tank and spank right now and will always be tank and spank, they couldn't possible have, i dunno, phases where they WON'T be tanked and will do lots of AoE damage or anything else mildly creative. I mean i can't think of any examples of bosses like that right now even so OBVIOUSLY wotlk won't have them or anything new.

Hence Divine Guardian is worthless, l2p everyone.


Yes, Divine Guardian has possible uses. However, in 90% of encounters we have seen previously, there is no real chance for the MT to bubble. While encounters in WotLK will certainly be somewhat different than those we have seen, most of them will probably be mostly the same.... and spending 2 talent points on something which might be useful sometimes instead of something which will be useful all the time doesn't really make sense. Basically, we can still respec.


This is very true actually. I mean what times when you're tanking you will have time to bubble since if you become immune a target will go to other players and wipe the raid. This seems to be more tailored for Holy or Retribution Paladins.


Huh?

Anyways two points of not very useful all the time versus amazing at least part of the time is no contest imo. Yes the prot talent tree is currently very bloated but a lot of it isn't necessary and I wouldn't give up the two points that DG takes for some other mediocre talent that when push comes to shove won't really help me.
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Postby Hammerjudge » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:34 am

Dragonzbane wrote:I think I am starting to come to the realization that I will have to plan out 3 different Prot specs because there will be no "Cookie Cutter" be-all-end-all spec.

Specs as follows:
- Hard Hitting, "Brut's Huge Older Brother is Comin' for Your Ass" Mitigation/Avoidance MT Spec
(threat is not an issue)

- "Insane, Through the Roof, Burn the Bastard Down ASAP" Threat Spec
(damage is not an issue)

- Crazy, "AoE tanking the Battle of Light Hope Chapel Solo" Spec
(AoE mit and threat are the only concerns)



I agree with that. I will probably go for the "threat spec" for levelling.
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Postby trellian » Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:05 am

actually i wonder if SoC is now viable for tanking..

If we're going to be using big dmg weapons instead of smal dmg +sd weapons (to benifit HotR) it might be a nice extra amount of threat and could become our seal of choice.
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Postby Conaan! » Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:48 am

2/59/10 spec

Idea for this spec:
Retain 5% parry
Increase mana efficiency
increase threat output

Why would i spec this way? easy answered, divine guardian is a holy spell, if your main tanking you dont bubble, period, therefore its better served in a different slot, i wish i could top off seals of the pure, but its points are needed to fill up shield of the templar and to put one point into guarded by the light, and judging by the amount of dodge/parry we will have (10% just from talents woo) that means that it will have a significant uptime. also, spell warding is worth the points, now i do plan on later, when WotLK comes out testing something, right now im seeing a change in plans with blizzard, taking out spell damage weapons for us and replacing it with warrior weapons (hammer of the righteous), i will need to see if hammer scales with SD better or pure weapon damage, though this is a godsend, we can now do some dps with those whacky lolret 2h'ers in our inventory.


one thing im not to sure about his imp holy shield, if they remove crushings, and you get your avoidance high enough as i see it coming too, why bother?
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