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Shield Specialization still tied to redoubt... and BoK gah!

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Postby Zx » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:33 pm

With as muh bloat as there is already in the prot tree I'd bet that the threat component is highly lacking and will turn out to be a huge waste of 2 talent points.
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:35 pm

Fridmarr wrote:I've tested redoubt about a million times on the simulators, it's roughly equal to about a passive 10% increase in block chance during very heavy AoE encounters and near useless otherwise. I find it very underwhelming.


I haven't aimed to measure uptime specifically before, but I've found it to represent about a 10% reduction in incoming damage overall in AoE situations, depending on the exact parameters used. I can dig up the results thread if you're interested.
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well

Postby Mavrix » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:56 pm

Honestly, if Redoubt wasn't required for shield spec in current live non-beta wow, then I would bet a ton of people would skip it completely already.
They should roll the two together or unlink them to allow more choice.
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Postby Obrimos » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:00 pm

Worldie wrote:Personally i'll send suggestion to make BoK baseline and rework Sanctuary and rework Redoubt, i hope they will read it.


Nah, make it the other way around.

Make Sanctuary a base line ability, make it scale with SP, and replace it with Kings.
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:01 pm

Dorvan wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:I've tested redoubt about a million times on the simulators, it's roughly equal to about a passive 10% increase in block chance during very heavy AoE encounters and near useless otherwise. I find it very underwhelming.


I haven't aimed to measure uptime specifically before, but I've found it to represent about a 10% reduction in incoming damage overall in AoE situations, depending on the exact parameters used. I can dig up the results thread if you're interested.


Well, reduction in damage is a tough measurement because it varies based on how hard you are getting hit and your block value. There's a simulator posted on here though that'll let you run some tests and you can specify with or without redoubt. I've run a ton of tests with it, and then parsed tons of WWS reports for some AoE stuff. It's just not that big of a deal under ideal conditions, and has almost no value in a lot of situations.
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:04 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Well, reduction in damage is a tough measurement because it varies based on how hard you are getting hit and your block value. There's a simulator posted on here though that'll let you run some tests and you can specify with or without redoubt. I've run a ton of tests with it, and then parsed tons of WWS reports for some AoE stuff. It's just not that big of a deal under ideal conditions, and has almost no value in a lot of situations.


Yep, that's why my simulator has inputs for both hit size and block value (as well and base block % and avoid %). the 10% reduction figure was based on a set of inputs that approximated (if I remember correctly) getting beat on by a bunch of Ghouls in Hyjal:

http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... php?t=3031

If you'd like the code I can find a place to post the simulator somewhere....it's pretty small.
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Postby ulushnar » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:07 pm

I guess if they give us two specs in Wrath, the thing to do will be to have an AoE tank spec and a single-target MT spec.
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Postby Amran20 » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:22 pm

Redoubt needs fixing or rolled into Shield Spec, or unlinked, BoSanct needs fixing/removed, and to be honest, I'd like to see One Handed Spec rolled into Reckoning, because there's just too many 5 point talents there.

If I had any other opinions, I'd like to see Guarded and Touched (Show me on the doll where the Light touched you.) by the Light to roll together as well.
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Postby Arjuna » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:32 pm

Show me on the doll where the Light touched you


hahaha!!!
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:34 pm

Guarded by the Light should be rolled into Shield of the Templar imo (yeah, it's not thematic that way, what do I care).
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Postby Khayne » Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:32 pm

I´d be happy if we dont aim for uncrushable anymore and redoubt were to be unlinked from shield spec.

that way i could use correct amount of points in it depending on my gear.
Say, i´d get to 50% avoidance and 8% block.
Then with holy shield i´d have 88% chance to avoid or block hit. At that time i´d gladly put 2 points in redoubt so everything i´d put in it would be effective instead of going over the top like it does now..

Or rework it into something else, maybe a
Redoubt: 5/5
Damaging melee and ranged attacks against you have a 10% chance to increase your chance to block by 15% and increase your block value by 15%. Lasts 10 sec or 8 blocks.

That way it wouldn´t go over the top of attack table as easily in tanking situations with only 1 mob but would give us extra threat and mitigation as it´d also turn the block chance we get from holy shield stronger because of the BV and increase shield slap damage.

Attleast drop the damn linking :( .


And Sanctuary. change it to be block value and mitigation from spells and let us get the on hit threat from shield slap and it´d be better, especially if they´d make kings baseline so we´d surely get it from some other paladin.

that change would make it mitigate twice more for us and also increase it´s threat alot (can´t find new ranks of it fast now so i´d guess at some 120 dmg mitigation at the very least since BoW for instance doubles from current i dont think getting half more from current would be too much).

Would make shield slap hit for 250dmg more thanks to more BV and then add some close to 100 holy dmg and it´d mean we´d get some 100 tps from having it on...wouldn´t be too earth shattering but i´d attleast want it after kings if mana would permit.


Or just remove it or make it post-armor reduction, at it´s current incarnation it´s more of a hindrance than use (zomg, i shaved 30dmg off that hit of 10k by having 1 talent point used and extra paladin blessing).

Then turn some of our 5 pointers to 3 pointers and we´d be much better off. 1H-spec as 1-3-5% increase and 3 talent points op?
reckoning as 3-6-10% chance?
ardent defender as 35%->10-20-30% mitigation?


i mean i dont need all of those 5pointers to become 3 pointers...just give me attleast 1 of those.


Dunno about imp. holy shield now, need to know how big portion of our threat it will be from now on.

it could be changed to increase damage on our shield slap and/or AS in addition to the holy shield if it ends up being too weak talent the way it is now i guess.

long wishlist is long, but i´m quite happy atm even if we´d "only" get the stuff on beta atm =).
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Postby Daredevil » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:51 pm

I agree!

I would love to see maybe 4 Talent Points less in the entire tree (specially Tiers 7+), the dump of BoK and the link of redoubt would be enough, I'd even consider it perfect. I'd suggest rolling Imp HS into its 1st talent and 1H Weapon Spec to 1,3,5% (3 points).

Would give a lot more flexibilities to Tankadins... lotsa different specs. The usual 59/12 and a couple of variatons of 5/54/12, 54/17, 12/59/0, and so on. I personally enjoy my "Shield Wall + Last Stand" Build (16 min LoH with 50% armor increase is just... sweet).
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well

Postby Mavrix » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:06 pm

Well, they need to do *something* to relieve the bloat.
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Postby OmegaDN » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:40 pm

WTB Holy Shield bullets for ShieldSlap!
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Postby Sartor » Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:02 am

Hm, well I would consider BoSanc to be something along the lines as:

Sanctuary
Paladin blessings place Sanctuary on affected targets, reducing damage from all sources by 3% and reflecting 1% of paladin's stamina as Holy damage when a block occurs.

As for Redoubt, I'd like to see it increasing block value instead of block %. In addition, another extra would be to restore 2% of the total mana (similar to Warrior's Stalward defender - restores 2 rage, aka 2% of the total rage bar) when dodge, block or parry occurs.

I'd appreciate if you could forward this to the in-game beta GMs, should you like the ideas of course. :P
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