WotLK Theorycrafting: MT specs and more!

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Lore » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:41 am

moduspwnens wrote:
Lore wrote:
Worldie wrote:Moved to more appropriate section.


Er, what section was it in before?

Cuz this definitely belongs in the Talent Specs forum.


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Pfft, been there, done that: http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... php?t=5846
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Postby Khayne » Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:05 pm

I´m thinking on same build as fizzgik, except i´m wondering about changing the 5 point in holy for 5% crit, Guarded by the Light, imp. judgements or Divine Strenght (or some mixture of those). Depends on the amount of threat the varying threat skills&stats do in relation to each other.

I´ve heard attleast judgements crit for 2X now too, add shield and hammer of righteous and the 5% crit would be quite good threat in addition to being good for off-healing when combined with the crit bonus on Touched by the Light (mostly about the threat for me though).

imp. judgements will be better than now, since while now we need to fit the seal into rotation (not too big problem but sometimes it bumps into either concecrate or holy shield, since judgements wont consume seals getting judgements to 8secs instead of 10 just means i get 1/4 more judgements off if mana permits. 25% judgement threat increase for 2 points should beat attleast the loss of 6% seal&judgement threat if i stole points from there.

Div. Strenght, depending on the amount of strenght that will be on gear can vary wildly, wont spec to it immediately after Wotlk though since i dont got strenght atm in gear anyway so i´m in no hurry on that talent spot yet, might be contender later.

Guarded by the light depends on how big mana problems i´ll have and how much i´ll use the spells it boosts and also on how much blizz punishes scaling if i´d use the current max ranks instead to save mana.



However as the "skeleton" that i´ll tweak will prob. be in that.
(pasting link too in case i referred to wrong tree at start.)
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZV0tIxczMgqeoGoV0x
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Postby Doktah » Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:47 pm

I am thinking of this spec:

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZy0xIx0zGgoeRhoVbx

I can't justify putting points into AD right now and I was never one for kings.
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Postby Dorvan » Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:51 pm

Lore wrote:Pfft, been there, done that: http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... php?t=5846


I'd like to note that I won that one :P
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Postby bjanssen » Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:34 pm

Fizzgig wrote:I think that regardless of crushes or not in WotLK you're doing yourself (and the raid) a disservice by not getting 5% extra avoidance.

Also why would you be worried about not taking stoicism?

At the moment I'm thinking http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZV0tIxczMgqeoGoV0x but it really depends on some key testing to figure out if stuff is worth it/needed. I'd love to pick up spell warding and guarded by the light but I'm not sure if that 15% extra damage will really be needed threat wise in holy.


So here's the question for me.

It seems at the moment that 2 Str = 1 BV

Then

Is the damage reduction from increasing STR (15%) by taking 5 points of divine strength more than the damage reduction from spending 10 points to get deflection (5%) parry?

I don't have the skills to do the theorycraft but it does seem possible that at some point the extra BV might reduce damage more than the deflection.
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Postby HiImRagnos » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:06 pm

MY spec will be

4/55/12 Youll see why.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

keeps all of the wanted abilitys. will trade imp SoR for Str if it comes to that though.
I hate double stamina trinkets.
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Postby Khayne » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:03 pm

bjanssen wrote:
Fizzgig wrote:I think that regardless of crushes or not in WotLK you're doing yourself (and the raid) a disservice by not getting 5% extra avoidance.

Also why would you be worried about not taking stoicism?

At the moment I'm thinking http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZV0tIxczMgqeoGoV0x but it really depends on some key testing to figure out if stuff is worth it/needed. I'd love to pick up spell warding and guarded by the light but I'm not sure if that 15% extra damage will really be needed threat wise in holy.


So here's the question for me.

It seems at the moment that 2 Str = 1 BV

Then

Is the damage reduction from increasing STR (15%) by taking 5 points of divine strength more than the damage reduction from spending 10 points to get deflection (5%) parry?

I don't have the skills to do the theorycraft but it does seem possible that at some point the extra BV might reduce damage more than the deflection.


Depends purely on how much strenght you will have from your gear and how hard bosses will hit.

I dont think you´d beat 5% parry with that strenght.
I mean, say all our BV comes from strenght, and we can reach only 40% avoidance (note that the more avoidance we can get, the better that 5% parry becomes).

That means adding 5% parry decreases us being hit by every 12th hit.
For strenght adding to become as good, you´d need to allready block for 55% of the amount you´re hit for.

And while this all is speculation, i doubt all BV comes from strenght (trinkets and shield?), we prob. will get better than 40% avoidance still, and i really doubt we could block for over half of every hit done on us :P


I do believe however that divine strenght will become good threat talent while also bumping up our BV for slight mitigation increase at same time.

EDIT: ofc against aoe packs this will propably become very powerful mitigation tool since on them we do block for higher % of the hits.
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Postby Truthiness » Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:00 am

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

First of all, yes Divine Strength damn it. All of the tanking gear we have seen so far is jam packed with it. If the 2 strength= 1 Block Value rumor stays true, then strength is going to be a major part of our threat since ShoR scales off of block value and HoR scales off of weapon damage. 15% more strength means higher threat on what looks to be our 2 biggest threat generators.

Second, only 1/2 imp Holy Shield. Looks like the baseline ability is going to have 6 charges. I don't know about you, but I really don't need 10 charges. You'll also notice that lack of Shield of the Templar and Guarded by the Light. My theory with Guarded by the Light is that if I'm dodging and parrying often enough to make that proc worthwhile, then I'm probably taking enough damage overall and regaining enough mana through SA that it doesn't matter. A 20% proc off of something that happens about 40% of the time really doesn't appeal to me. Shield of the Templar looked mildly interesting but then I realized how much HS and ShoR actually cost. HS is a pretty cheap ability at 280 mana and ShoR is only 6% base. Crusader Strike in 8% and only costs my ret pally 236 mana right now at 70. The only reason to take it is the reduction in the AS cost, which to me wasn't worth the 3 points.

Instead I went with Imp devotion aura. Why? Well first of all I expect Ret Pallies to be around more and that is going to be their new primary aura. (3% haste, 2% damage baby) Second, I don't see Holy Pallies going for imp devotion for three reasons. First, they tend to have concentration aura up. Second, imp concentration has moved to the Holy tree. And third, besides kings there really isnt much of a reason for Holy pallies to go that deep into the prot tree anymore, save for maybe Divine Guardian. Even without other pallies around, I don't see ret aura being that much of a threat contributor in single target tanking, even with the buffs. 3% more healing is definitely a nice buff to bring to the raid/group for bosses.

As a side note, I was originally considering ditching spell warding and imp devotion in favor of seals of the pure, but then I realized that seals and judgements are probably not going to be as important to our threat generation. 25% of that damage is probably going to be a fairly minor threat increase. The extra utility and mitigation won out in the end.

WotLK looks like it's going to turn our itemization on its head. I for one welcome our new strength overlords.

*Edit* Damn it, I didn't notice that Guarded by the Light was changed to a straight 30% reduction in mana cost for Holy Wrath, Avenger's Shield, and Consecration. Nuts, I'm going to have to take it now. I'll be ditching spell warding.
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Postby bjanssen » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:55 pm

Thanks for the envelope maths on BV vs parry. However some of the other math is suggesting 15% more strength is going to be a huge bump in threat so we'll probably end up wanting the strength anyway and the extra BV will be a bonus.

I hadn't thought about dropping shield of the templar. Truthi is right, the mana bonus is trivial. And the damage only affects 3 spells one of which is on a 30 second cooldown. Looks like those 3 points would give more threat elsewhere.

All that leaves me thinking this http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZE0tIgczrgqeoMo is the core (assuming divine guardian works as I hope and the damage from the raid is swallowed by the bubble). I still think 2 points in reckoning is a part of being a pally but if you drop those you have 11 points to play with. If you want avoidance take the points in ret to get 5% parry Or take the points in mana efficiency. Or take the points in more threat eg SoP and something else - heck imp hammer of justice stops one mob from hitting you every 30 seconds which is nice on trash :).
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Postby Tybalt » Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:09 pm

With Crushing Blows a non-factor, Effective Health will probably be a paladin's bread and butter gearing approach. Armor, BV (Strength) and Stamina would be our preferred stats. To make best use of the EH approach, I'd go with the following EH/Threat build:

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZx0tIxcdMgqeRGoVo

You could trade some threat for avoidance by spec'ing into +dodge or +parry if you felt you needed it.
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Postby Daredevil » Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:20 pm

I'm certainly planning to favor block (and EH) over avoidance, maybe something like
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

I'm chasing Imp LoH for its *OH SHI* component, along with a pretty potent armor buff (for only 15sec now).

I could swap Intellect and Unyielding Faith, getting 5/5 Int or keep it the way it is, but I'm definitely picking up Imp LoH. Having to spec into BoK will make me cry (as I said on the topic I've started).
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Postby Worldie » Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:38 pm

If Deflection won't be needed i'm as well going for Imp LoH, i always wanted a Shield Wall.
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:43 pm

Tybalt wrote:With Crushing Blows a non-factor, Effective Health will probably be a paladin's bread and butter gearing approach. Armor, BV (Strength) and Stamina would be our preferred stats. To make best use of the EH approach, I'd go with the following EH/Threat build:

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZx0tIxcdMgqeRGoVo

You could trade some threat for avoidance by spec'ing into +dodge or +parry if you felt you needed it.


The thing is, crushing blows have nothing to do with why tanks throw avoidance into the mix.....otherwise we'd just rely on block rating and you wouldn't see people in favor gemming/enchanting for some avoidance.
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Postby Daredevil » Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:43 pm

Deflection won't be needed as it is now, since Crushing Blows are no more. It's always nice to have some more pure avoidance, but I'm pretty set on Block being the FOTM.

Also, we've got 5% dodge as an opener, which we did not have before. The 5% Parry you are losing for not picking up Deflection is being compensated by 5% Dodge.
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Postby Worldie » Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:47 pm

If i was to take Imp LoH i'd rather go like this
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZV0tIx0dMgqeohoV0x0h

Aura Mastery as nice bonus, raidwide auras are raidwide.
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