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Question to BETA Players -> Scaling

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Question to BETA Players -> Scaling

Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:27 am

I do have a question about scaling, I think that might be very important to all Paladins in the future.

I want to know how our stuff scales.

First, very simple try:

Use Conseceration on a target (Level 1 Bunny or whatever). Note the Damage. Note youre Spelldamage.

Next, buff SdMight. So you get more AP. Now do it again. You see more damage? Or not?

Cause I want to know: Scaling only with AP OR SD (higher) or with both. Cause both would be epic. But I suppose it will be either / or. But one can dream, right?
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Re: Question to BETA Players -> Scaling

Postby guillex » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:28 am

Sarkan-ZdC wrote:I do have a question about scaling, I think that might be very important to all Paladins in the future.

I want to know how our stuff scales.

First, very simple try:

Use Conseceration on a target (Level 1 Bunny or whatever). Note the Damage. Note youre Spelldamage.

Next, buff SdMight. So you get more AP. Now do it again. You see more damage? Or not?

Cause I want to know: Scaling only with AP OR SD (higher) or with both. Cause both would be epic. But I suppose it will be either / or. But one can dream, right?


Don't you have to spec into the Ret tree for that conversion? Sheath of Light?

The Prot conversion is Sta -> SP.
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:37 am

No, I think you don't. If you spec, you just get bonus SD out of it.
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Postby Base » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:52 am

So are you asking if consecration scales with attack power? Because I've not seen anything anywhere that suggests it might...
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:55 am

Elthar wrote:So are you asking if consecration scales with attack power? Because I've not seen anything anywhere that suggests it might...


Yes, exactly. Might be I totally missunderstood something. But it is very fast to prove this, if one has a beta key :wink:
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Postby Maelstrom » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:58 am

Consecration has been shown to only scale with spell damage. Spell damage currently scales with stamina (If you have the prot talent) and attack power (If you have the ret talent).

Other abilities such as seals and judgements have been shown to scale using equivalent attack power and spell damage coefficients (At least preliminary testing suggests as such).

This question has been asked a lot, I would suggest checking out the wotlk thread and looking for the theorycrafters :)
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Postby Arjuna » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:59 am

think that I read somewhere that it didnt...but don't remember the place...

better to test it.

But i guess it wouldnt make sense for it to do. consecration, wrath and HS will probably be our aoe tanking abilites, so we may have to use a specialized set of gear for that will spellpower...(if consecration would scale with ap it would make sense that holy wrath should do it aswell since they are both aoe threat moves)
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:28 am

Maelstrom wrote:Consecration has been shown to only scale with spell damage. Spell damage currently scales with stamina (If you have the prot talent) and attack power (If you have the ret talent).

Other abilities such as seals and judgements have been shown to scale using equivalent attack power and spell damage coefficients (At least preliminary testing suggests as such).

This question has been asked a lot, I would suggest checking out the wotlk thread and looking for the theorycrafters :)


So Seals & Judgements scale with AP & SD? Not the higher one? Which thread to you mean? The forum here is full :)

But anyhow, our scaling will be.. interessting.
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yeah

Postby Mavrix » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:39 am

One of the EJ testers posted cons only scales with spell damage and is not effected by AP.

Additionally it was found that SoV refresh procs only do damage based on spellpower (if zero spellpower, then zero damage on refresh swings). I only mention this because this is the one seal that does not seem to follow the "equal benefit from AP and SP".
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Postby Vanifae » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:41 am

Consecration is not affected by AP.
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Postby PsiVen » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:42 am

Interesting is one way of putting it 8)

Shield of Righteousness does 200% SBV as pure holy every 6 sec.
In my dream SBV set from TBC gear I have 1035. Going to assume that this will be attainable around Naxx gear in quality suitable for, say, outdoor grinding.
1035 + 186*1.4 (mother libram) + 200*1.4 (trinket) = 1575 SBV
1575*2 = 3150 damage
Avenging Wrath + 15% talent (assuming these are additive) -> 3150*1.45 = 4568 damage (9135 crit).

Gank that.

Btw, consider this:

With the 10% SBV meta, 10 block value on gear = 10*1.4*2*1.9/6 = 8.9 TPS. This is .89 TPS per point of SBV. By comparison the convention for spell power is .5 TPS per point of spell power, and at a quick estimate from enchants I believe SBV is cheaper in item budget by 5/3 to spell power.
In other words SBV scales our threat in WotLK approximately three times as well as spell power does currently.

10 str unaffected by shield spec = 10*1.1/2*2*1.9/6 = 3.5 TPS from SBV contribution alone.

I think it's time to forget about worrying about spell damage on tanking gear. Barring some insane AoE threat requirements, Holy Wrath's contribution with a spell damage weapon to swap in and the stam->sp talent will cover it.
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Postby d503 » Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:02 am

Really anecdotal here, as I don't have the time to list out what gear I had, but when I ported over in my tanking gear (you can see on armory - Tippocabra is my name), I had 930 Spellpower with Icon equipped.

My consecrates were hitting for 187ish.

I decided, on a lark, that I was gonna toss on my Ret gear, and keep my sword and board (or pink lolly pop, and disco dish) on.

My consecrates then hit for 111. I think my spellpower was at about 290ish at this point (or even less).

Why did I do this? Mostly to test HotR and SoR. In the 930 Spellpower gear, my HotR was hitting for 125-200 max...just pathetic, imo. My SoR was hitting for like 220 a swing or so. In my Ret gear with 1800 attack power, my HotR was hitting for 800-900 and my SoR was hitting for 400.

I think we have our answer.

So the cons that I've noticed about "warrior" tanking gear (no SP) will be this:
- Consecrate Damage significantly lessened.
- Avenger's Shield dmg significantly lessened (was hitting for about half-ish in my AP gear.)

I haven't tested other abilities, as it was getting real late, and my wife was getting ornery :P

If anyone wants me to perform specific tests, I'd be happy too. While I understand Theorycraft and mechanics, I'm not the best at making the test cases for figure out the formulas, but I'm more than willing to parse out WWS logs and F around with stuff.

Also, I was traveling with a pocket ret paladin. They are ridiculously broken and it's tempting to respec ><[/list]
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Postby guillex » Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:07 am

d503:

Speccing into Touched, and seeing how warrior gear (with its stam) affects SP.
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Postby d503 » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:21 am

Guillex wrote:d503:

Speccing into Touched, and seeing how warrior gear (with its stam) affects SP.


I had touched. I went from 490 SP on BC server to 890 on Beta server with the boost from stamina.

That's with 17217 health.

I don't have enough warrior gear to test that, sadly, but I can always throw on some Kara epics I have sitting around to see how it's effected. In my ret gear I had 290 SP, with about 10k health.
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:33 am

Since I've seen it pop up a few places now, let me remind people that the 1 spellpower = .5 tps is based on a number of assumptions that are completely broken by our new spells, talents, and general mechanics. I have no idea how much tps 1 spellpower is in WotLK, but I be absolutely shocked if the calculation landed exactly where it did before given all the changes.

If you want to compare BV to spellpower, you need to come up with a new tps value for spellpower as well....the old one is worthless for such comparisons
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