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0/59/12 New Cookie Cutter Wrath MT Build

All things related to the expansion

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Postby Worldie » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:02 pm

theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby Caelia » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:31 pm

considering to go:

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sMZV0tIgczRxqeRGoV0x

since the new holy shield is 6 charges instead of 4 and imp makes it 10 instead of 8. i think 6 will be fine enough. Maybe even drop divine guardian and kings for 5/5 seals of the pure. but probally roll with 2/59/10 or something similar to it.
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Postby jere » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:04 pm

Worldie wrote:http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=48482

Just for clarification.


Where is the 20% cap at? I see stacks to 5, but I could be missing something pretty simple.
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Postby Dorvan » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:09 pm

jere wrote:Where is the 20% cap at? I see stacks to 5, but I could be missing something pretty simple.


Check out the spell detail:

Effect #1 [Apply Aura]: Mod Speed Slow
Value: -10
Effect #2 [Apply Aura]: Haste - Melee
Value: -4

Basically, the spell wording is wrong....it applies 10% movement speed reduction/4% melee haste reduction per stack
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Postby Tycho » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:48 pm

5/66/0 Alterna-build. Reck+REAL tank weapon(aka has actual dps unlike caster swords)+Div.Str.+Seals of the Pure might make for moderate threat.

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZE0tIxczgxqeRGo

Would require high avoidance gear since you're missing 5% from +parry.

Meh.
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Postby Caelia » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:32 pm

Tycho wrote:5/66/0 Alterna-build. Reck+REAL tank weapon(aka has actual dps unlike caster swords)+Div.Str.+Seals of the Pure might make for moderate threat.

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZE0tIxczgxqeRGo

Would require high avoidance gear since you're missing 5% from +parry.

Meh.

If you are using an actual warrior tank sword it may be alot better to use Seal of the Martyr / Seal of Blood over SoR or SoV. Also added the slight damage you take will also increase mana gain + it will increase the damage of Hammer of the Righteous.

which could lead to something like:

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZE0tIxczMxqeRGoV0x

possibly getting rid of parry for reckoning again but idk.
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Postby Griffonheart » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:53 pm

A wackier approach:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

PoJ adds to your movement speed which could be useful for tanking (as well as the -2% being hit by spell, which allow you to deduct 1pt from Spell Warding to other spots..
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Postby shifttusk » Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:38 am

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000


Should STR appear more than BV this is the spec I think I'd go for for boss/nonaoe tanking.

And yes I'm still thinking conviction will rule!
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Postby Vencedor » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:44 am

Doktah wrote:Judgements of the Just seems like a waste of 2 pts, you should put those 2 points into reckoning for extra threat.

Also, drop POJ, put those points into Seals of the Pure. Boar's speed enchant is far more valuable then POJ.


I don't agree, JotJ is something we've needed for a long time and is extremely valuable. We don't really need more threat now and I really doubt we're going to need it after receiving 2 new on demand snap aggro abilities for all fights, along with an insta-cast Holy Wrath and .5 second AS. So no, I'll keep Thunderjudge.

Regarding POJ, I'd rather have some extra run speed and a bit of spell miss than 1% into Seal Damage. What tank would put Boar's Speed on their boots anyways? Stamina, my friend.
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Postby Kayoto » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:58 am

I'm preferential to 0/61/10 myself.

I'd take 2 points out of Reck and put them into Divine Guardian if it proved invaluable in WotLK raids, but otherwise I'd leave it how it is.

Seals of the Pure doesn't appeal to me at all because it doesn't improve Seal of Blood damage, and I think that'll be the premier single-target tanking seal (using a high DPS weapon) due to the STR that seems prevalent on upcoming tanking gear, as well as giving more mana back from damage taken by the seal/judgements.

Also possibly considering taking those three points out of Reckoning and putting them into Divine Strength, depending on Reckoning uptime in WotLK raids and the mitigation/threat improvement provided by 9% more STR.
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Postby benwalden » Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:41 pm

Personally looking forward to a 5/53/13 build -- http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZV0tIx0dMgqeohoV0x0h

Divine Guardian is a holy support talent for the new AoE heal being gained. You'll pick up tons of agro by then end of it's healing capacity and you'll need a way to dump said agro. The bonus is that you'll nix damage by 30% when you do. ;) Heck, even a ret pally would love to pick this up. As long as the healers can keep you alive!

Guarded by the Light is cute, too, but we're going to have enough toys in WotLK to keep our 8-10 second rotation full. I don't want to have to worry about dynamically screwing up my threat rotation just to squeeze in another consecration. Besides, if you're taking damage, you'll be netting mana so it should never be an issue.

And isn't Judgments of the Just counter-intuitive for a prot pally? I mean, we want to get hit quick so we burn through our HS charges, not have 6 left by the time they expire. Besides, it only deals with a single target, so the talent completely ignores AoE tanking, where it would best be applied (if applied en masse).

Just thoughts.

Oh, before this gets lost in the TLDR; I haven't read all the posts before mine, but I'm doing so after this gets posted. :)
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Postby Io.Draco » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:43 pm

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Postby Vesstair » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:24 pm

I tend to beg to differ with a number of opinions stated...

General assumptions to explain my choices-
1. New coefficients:

Seal of Righteousness -- 5% AP/sec, 10% SP/sec
Seal of Light: Health gained -- 28% AP, 28% SP
Seal of Wisdom: Mana gained --- 14% AP, 14% SP
Judgment of Righteousness -- 45% AP, 73% SP
Judgment of Light/Wis/Justice damage component: 36% AP, 58% SP
Judgment of Light proc: Health gained --- 18% AP, 18% SP
Judgment of Wisdom proc: Mana gained --- 9% AP, 9% SP
Regen scaling is based on caster's AP/SP, not the proc'er.


V = number of Vengeance debuffs on the target.

DoT: Damage -- 7% AP, 3.4% * V SP => 17% * SP @ full stack
Proc: Damage-- 1.2% * ws * SP
Judgment of Vengeance (0 stacks): 36% AP, 58% SP
Judgment of Vengeance (5 stacks): 54% AP, 87% SP

Note the seals and judges scaling off AP as well as sp dmg. Given this, ret being rolled onto the same itemization as DPS warriors, and the BoE tanking loot that has been shown on MMO champion (ALL of it has str, and a LOT of it), this leads me to believe that we will be sharing tanking plate with warriors generally, and it will have str as the basic threat stat.

2. We will be able to switch talent specs when out of combat, much like gear. Source: http://wotlkwiki.info/index.php/Misc#tab=WWI

3. Talent trees will stay as they are on the WoW site now (aka, 6-charge holy shield, etc)

I expect the cookie-cutter "main tankadin" build will look pretty much like
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000
with the last 5 points going into seals of the pure, 1h wep spec, reckoning, or possibly Guarded by the Light, basically wherever you get the largest single-target TPS increase (which, regardless what ANYONE says, we will not know until people start messing around in raids, as we simply DO NOT know what the gear will look like).

Also, I expect the"AoE tanking/utility" spec might look something like
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

(Assumption 4- if we bless someone with a talented blessing, aka kings or imp might, and we then switch to our other talent tree, it will remain improved(might) or active (kings))

possibly shifting the points in 1h wep spec or toughness into divine str or heart of the crusader or something, depending on the needs of threat gen and mitigation
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Postby QuantumDelta » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:43 pm

That page is marked the rumour mill for a reason.

Also Holy Paladins will probably be taking

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000
Unless they nerf Conviction (Doubtful).


http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

Point in GbTL is 'free/space' and reckoning is only for raid instance #1 and probably dropped after that in favour of DG and 1/2 IJ. -> GbTL will probably go to Kings at that point.

It basically depends on how viable consecration is with or without GbTL.
I'm honestly of the opinion it wont be used unless we're AE tanking (so the point is only really there for AS/HoW for that first instance).

*This is assuming my retri pally takes:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 3105231351

But if he wants SoTP, I'll have to go kings from the start (= Sanctuary will never, ever be used).
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Postby Vesstair » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:58 pm

QuantumDelta wrote:That page is marked the rumour mill for a reason.


I know that, and that's why I made a pretty big point of saying it was an assumption I was making
QuantumDelta wrote:*snip*
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

Point in GbTL is 'free/space' and reckoning is only for raid instance #1 and probably dropped after that in favour of DG and 1/2 IJ. -> GbTL will probably go to Kings at that point.

It basically depends on how viable consecration is with or without GbTL.
I'm honestly of the opinion it wont be used unless we're AE tanking (so the point is only really there for AS/HoW for that first instance).

I think I have to disagree with dropping redoubt/shield spec. As it is now, it's pretty decent mitigation; if our gear is gonna have a bunch of strength (which it is looking, to me at least, like it will), and you're gonna be using divine strength, it seems stupid to me to take more damage and miss a possible 30% dmg buff on one of our new (presumably core) abilities.

QuantumDelta wrote:*This is assuming my retri pally takes:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 3105231351

But if he wants SoTP, I'll have to go kings from the start (= Sanctuary will never, ever be used).


This brings up a somewhat interesting question- if the pally throwing ret aura has improved ret aura, does the +50% damage apply to people other than the retadin? If so, I know I would want my retadin to have it. Regardless, I expect
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 3105231351

might be a more likely ret build. It would surprise me if it wasn't pretty standard to spec for an additional 150 AP for EVERY physical damage dealer in the raid. I mean, if you figure 1 melee group + 3 tanks + 1 hunter, which is honestly about as light on physical DPS as a raid ever is, those 5 points still end up being 1350 AP, and with death knights being another melee class it would not surprise me at all if there were more in the range of 12-13 physical DPSers, meaning it would be almost 2000 AP.

*EDIT*
I didn't really look at your holy build, so I did not see imp BoM there. My bad :-/. But I still think ret will put points into imp ret aura, and I'm just about 100% sure holy will NOT. They're gonna be running imp conc, and there's no way holy will throw the same aura as the ret paladin who brings 3% haste and 2% damage to the entire raid with it.
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