A Realization - Raid Balance, hybrids, and WotLK

All things related to the expansion

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Postby Soltyr » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:30 am

Baelor wrote:Despite anything that's been said to this point, one simple fact remains. Unless the healer ratio changes in Northrend 25-mans, we're looking at raids with...

3 tanks (4 classes to choose from)
14+ DPS (10 classes to choose from)
8ish healers (4 classes to choose from)

Even if my tank and DPS numbers are a little off, healing is the only role that there are less classes available than there are needs for raids. Even if I'm a dumbass for thinking that diversity in specs is a good thing for raids and you should stack what's best, class parity be damned, there's still no getting around the fact that you'll have to double up on resto/holy buggers to achieve the heal minimum, where-as you don't necessarily have to double up on fire mages or protection warriors or combat rogues if you don't want to - there are other DPS/tank-capable classes you can bring to fill that role.


As others pointed out, with the new rating changes, it's possible there will be a revaluation of the off-healers as role, pretty much like dps in off-tanking duty. So let's suppose for example:

2 Main-tanks (4 classes to choose from)
2 Off-tanks (4 classes to choose from)

6 Main-Healers (4 classes to choose from)
2 Off-healers (4 classes to choose from)

13 (+4) DPS (10 classes to choose from)
Image
User avatar
Soltyr
 
Posts: 480
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:02 pm

Postby Dorvan » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:52 am

Jonlo wrote:
Ulushnar wrote:
Ryu wrote:There are no fixed class slots, rather there are slots for the 25 best players.


Go in with a tank and 24 rogues. see how far you get. ;)


Find me 24 good rogues first.


Psh, who needs the tank? Evasion/Vanish rotation ftw.
Image

WHAT WOULD BEST DESCRIBE YOUR PERSONALITY?
Moonlight Sonata Techno Remix
Scriggle - 85 Fire Mage
Fizzmore - 81 Mut Rogue
Adorania - 80 Disc Priest
User avatar
Dorvan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 8462
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:28 pm

Postby Hollyhell » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:58 am

Jonlo wrote:
Ulushnar wrote:
Ryu wrote:There are no fixed class slots, rather there are slots for the 25 best players.


Go in with a tank and 24 rogues. see how far you get. ;)


Find me 24 good rogues first.


Such a thing does not exist.
Hollyhell
 
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:45 pm

Postby Baelor » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:59 am

Dorvan wrote:
Jonlo wrote:
Ulushnar wrote:
Ryu wrote:There are no fixed class slots, rather there are slots for the 25 best players.


Go in with a tank and 24 rogues. see how far you get. ;)


Find me 24 good rogues first.


Psh, who needs the tank? Evasion/Vanish rotation ftw.

He's on to something, folks.

Or maybe he's just on something.

Dorvan, have we mentioned the Maintankadin random drug testing policy to you yet? 'Cuz you were just randomly selected. Pee in this cup and bring it to Lore for analysis. Fridmarr will be monitoring you as you do so. Be aware that if you try to cheat the system, commissioner Aergis will excommunicate you and Worldie will sick Invisusira on you to pester you with annoying tells to the end of your days.
I am the light that brings the dawn.
Something Wicked this way comes.
Formerly: Baelor of Runetotem-US (2006-2007) | Cathmor of Malfurion-US (2007-2010)
Follow me on Twitter
User avatar
Baelor
Moderator
 
Posts: 2677
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:42 am
Location: New York

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:14 am

Uhh, hold on a minute!
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9671
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Postby Worldie » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:16 am

Baelor wrote:
Dorvan wrote:
Jonlo wrote:
Ulushnar wrote:
Ryu wrote:There are no fixed class slots, rather there are slots for the 25 best players.


Go in with a tank and 24 rogues. see how far you get. ;)


Find me 24 good rogues first.


Psh, who needs the tank? Evasion/Vanish rotation ftw.

He's on to something, folks.

Or maybe he's just on something.

Dorvan, have we mentioned the Maintankadin random drug testing policy to you yet? 'Cuz you were just randomly selected. Pee in this cup and bring it to Lore for analysis. Fridmarr will be monitoring you as you do so. Be aware that if you try to cheat the system, commissioner Aergis will excommunicate you and Worldie will sick Invisusira on you to pester you with annoying tells to the end of your days.

What's going on here
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13651
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Postby Baelor » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:16 am

Fridmarr wrote:Uhh, hold on a minute!

What? You must have realized that this was in the job description when you signed up. Or did Aergis fail to mention that little detail?

Grats on being the most junior moderator! Now go watch Dorvan pee.
I am the light that brings the dawn.
Something Wicked this way comes.
Formerly: Baelor of Runetotem-US (2006-2007) | Cathmor of Malfurion-US (2007-2010)
Follow me on Twitter
User avatar
Baelor
Moderator
 
Posts: 2677
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:42 am
Location: New York

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:17 am

Baelor wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Uhh, hold on a minute!

What? You must have realized that this was in the job description when you signed up. Or did Aergis fail to mention that little detail?

Grats on being the most junior moderator! Now go watch Dorvan pee.


lol, sucker
Image
Turn In, an NPC interaction automator - http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addo ... rn-in.aspx
User avatar
Sabindeus
Moderator
 
Posts: 10494
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am

Postby Baelor » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:22 am

Soltyr wrote:
Baelor wrote:Despite anything that's been said to this point, one simple fact remains. Unless the healer ratio changes in Northrend 25-mans, we're looking at raids with...

3 tanks (4 classes to choose from)
14+ DPS (10 classes to choose from)
8ish healers (4 classes to choose from)

Even if my tank and DPS numbers are a little off, healing is the only role that there are less classes available than there are needs for raids. Even if I'm a dumbass for thinking that diversity in specs is a good thing for raids and you should stack what's best, class parity be damned, there's still no getting around the fact that you'll have to double up on resto/holy buggers to achieve the heal minimum, where-as you don't necessarily have to double up on fire mages or protection warriors or combat rogues if you don't want to - there are other DPS/tank-capable classes you can bring to fill that role.


As others pointed out, with the new rating changes, it's possible there will be a revaluation of the off-healers as role, pretty much like dps in off-tanking duty. So let's suppose for example:

2 Main-tanks (4 classes to choose from)
2 Off-tanks (4 classes to choose from)

6 Main-Healers (4 classes to choose from)
2 Off-healers (4 classes to choose from)

13 (+4) DPS (10 classes to choose from)

Min/max'ers would just have people go respec if they needed extra heals. The "off-heal" point is acknowledged, but mostly invalidated by the ability of players to hearth, respec, and get summoned back in.
I am the light that brings the dawn.
Something Wicked this way comes.
Formerly: Baelor of Runetotem-US (2006-2007) | Cathmor of Malfurion-US (2007-2010)
Follow me on Twitter
User avatar
Baelor
Moderator
 
Posts: 2677
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:42 am
Location: New York

Postby Worldie » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:23 am

Depends, add a timed event where you need 4 healers for the gauntlet part and 8 healers for the boss at the end, and the hearth-respec-resummon will not work.
ZA comes to mind as well.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13651
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Postby Baelor » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:27 am

Worldie wrote:Depends, add a timed event where you need 4 healers for the gauntlet part and 8 healers for the boss at the end, and the hearth-respec-resummon will not work.
ZA comes to mind as well.

Touche, salesman. Touche.
I am the light that brings the dawn.
Something Wicked this way comes.
Formerly: Baelor of Runetotem-US (2006-2007) | Cathmor of Malfurion-US (2007-2010)
Follow me on Twitter
User avatar
Baelor
Moderator
 
Posts: 2677
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:42 am
Location: New York

Postby Worldie » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:30 am

Well i've always been a fan of not changing people midraid, and my guild always thought like this. We were kinda forced to change people for Sunwell, but we don't change more than 2-3 people per boss (including respecs).
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13651
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Re: A Realization - Raid Balance, hybrids, and WotLK

Postby Eliane » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:49 am

Baelor wrote:http://e4ae.blogspot.com/2008/07/raid-composition-in-wotlk.html

We've got a problem. 25-man cap on a raid - 10 classes eligible to fill 25 spots. If Blizzard continues to tune encounters similarly to how they are now, raid leaders will want 7-9 healers in the raid. Let's average it and call it 8.

H'okay, so you've got your 25-man raid, and you can choose from 10 different classes - that means 2.5 spots per class. You'll take 3 of some classes, 2 of others, to retain raid balance.

But wait - there are only 4 classes that can heal. If you want 8 healers, that means you need to take 2-3 of each healer class. Consequently, if raid leaders try to stick to the "no more than 3" rule for each class to retain class parity in raids, now you start bumping hybrids out. If you're taking 2 resto shaman, you can't have both an enhancer and an ele in there too. More close to home, if you bring 2 holy paladins, you can't bring a ret AND a prot without bumping another class down to a 1-character representation.

Problems are afoot.


I didnt read all the replies, but in my guild we dont have class-spots as such. It's more about what role you play. I dont compete with ret or holy paladins for raidspots and enhancement and resto shamans dont compete about the same spots either.

We also dont use a fixed number for each class/roll, apart from tanks, which are set to two full protection tanks each raid.

We started looking past the class when we started raiding and focused on roles and the player and it has worked out really well for us, I dont really see this changing with wotlk. We've never used class leaders either, we just have a few officers who actually talk and listen to our member about what they think is best if we're ever in doubt.
Image
Eliane
 
Posts: 234
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 3:59 am

Postby Soltyr » Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:12 am

Same here, I'm a fan of not changing people midraid and about respecing we don't know if it will be available for raiding (it's enough a few hours of c/d to avoid this).

Btw to increase the healing output by catching from the hybrid pool, it's something not so imposible now and maybe expected. Beside the new spellpower/rating system there are more talents also crucial healing talents in a lower tier to encourage off-healing duty.

For a Balance: Nature's Focus moved in tier1, Omen of clarity proc off from spell too. Mana return from crited heal for elemetals (ImpWatershield). Well even for paladin, Spiritual focus moved in tier 1 and Illumination moved in tier3 want to mean something in couple with Sheath of Light, giving to a ret a nice off-healing option as well.
Image
User avatar
Soltyr
 
Posts: 480
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:02 pm

Postby protonly » Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:16 am

Maybe the focus in wrath is less on class representation (and forcing certain specs; I can rememebr the days of "go holy or go home") and instead on just filling roles? It would make sense that the tanking field has been leveled to some degree and the healing field too. Though maybe not level but they're not as lopsided as they were in vanilla or early TBC.

A class balance would be nice but in my guild we only have about 150 players so we don't have the numbers to be as selective. We don't do a dkp bench so if someone doesn't get a spot they log so there is no switching out classes. We don't really have class leads either...we have "role" leads like tank, healer and, pewpew.

As long as enough tanks/healers/dps show up we raid and if we can get 25 pallys for a raid, then by god, we got ourselves a REAL raid.
protonly
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:17 pm

Previous

Return to WotLK

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest