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How would you clean up the prot tree?

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Postby knaughty » Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:41 pm

Very rambling post:

• Swap Toughness and Redoubt. Or • Redoubt 5/5: Add 5% block chance.

Warriors get Defensive stance for free, 10% damage reduction. They now have "Improved Defensive Stance" as well (new?); so warriors are back to having a flat 10% damage advantage over us (again), because it works the same as 3/3 Imp RF.

Thus: Rework Imp RF? 5/5 = 3/6/9/12/15% Damage reduction. Then remove Sacred Duty - overall effect about the same, warriors still have their 1% advantage.

The effects of (deep breath): Reckoning; 1-h Spec; Ardent Defender & Combat Expertise reduced to 15 points total.

Move deflection to Rank 1 of Ret?

Other notes: 1-h spec for warriors is 2% per point, ours is 1%. Why?

5/5/61 or 8/5/58 look like the prot warrior builds, and they skip nothing to complete them... just some trade-offs around the last 3-5 points.

Our equivalent is 5/70/10... 14 points over-budget.

Need to clear 10 points from Prot, and move deflection to rank 1, and we still face more difficult trade-offs than prot warriors.

Looking at warrior PvE specs:
• Fury is more a case of "meh... where do I put my last few points, it all a bit so-so"
• Prot 5/5/58 is "done" - you have 3 points left to stick somewhere "decent".

Vs ret/prot:
• Prot is stupidly huge
• Ret is close to OK. Standard PvE build looks like 0/5/66, with everything PvE except Imp. Ret Aura. To be even with Fury, it needs 5 points trimmed out.

Still, overall I'm quite pleased, other than going back to the "10%" mitigation gap we faced in 2.0.

I can't see Holy/Ret staying as-is. 48/0/23 looks tons better than 51+ Holy. Unless the idea is to move the nasty trade-off that priests had between CoH and Imp Spirit to Paladins instead.

Still, at least it's an interesting trade-off: Bigger heals and a HoT, vs AE heal.
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Postby Sharlos » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:24 am

the only positioning change I'd want is Redoubt made a 2 point talent and shield spec moved down a tier to the right of redoubt. So that way I have enough points to make it to the next tier without having to spend 12 points in a single tier of talents.
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Postby moduspwnens » Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:36 am

Knaughty wrote:Very rambling post:

• Swap Toughness and Redoubt. Or • Redoubt 5/5: Add 5% block chance.

Warriors get Defensive stance for free, 10% damage reduction. They now have "Improved Defensive Stance" as well (new?); so warriors are back to having a flat 10% damage advantage over us (again), because it works the same as 3/3 Imp RF.

Thus: Rework Imp RF? 5/5 = 3/6/9/12/15% Damage reduction. Then remove Sacred Duty - overall effect about the same, warriors still have their 1% advantage.


Improved Defensive Stance only mitigates additional spell damage, and it's been available all through TBC, as far as I know.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:48 am

Blend "Touched by the light" and "guarded by the light" together, make holy shield a 2pointer including the benefits from 2/2 imp holy shield.
There you go, 3 points to play with. More than enough IMO.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:01 am

Knaughty wrote:Very rambling post:

• Swap Toughness and Redoubt. Or • Redoubt 5/5: Add 5% block chance.

Warriors get Defensive stance for free, 10% damage reduction. They now have "Improved Defensive Stance" as well (new?); so warriors are back to having a flat 10% damage advantage over us (again), because it works the same as 3/3 Imp RF.

Improved Defensive Stance is only against spells, it's their version of our spell warding. been around forever.
Knaughty wrote:The effects of (deep breath): Reckoning; 1-h Spec; Ardent Defender & Combat Expertise reduced to 15 points total.

Move deflection to Rank 1 of Ret?

Other notes: 1-h spec for warriors is 2% per point, ours is 1%. Why?

Their damage output is not a big source of threat compared to us. 5% damage = 4,99% threat for us, but 5% damage to them is more like 2% more threat.
Knaughty wrote:5/5/61 or 8/5/58 look like the prot warrior builds, and they skip nothing to complete them... just some trade-offs around the last 3-5 points.

Our equivalent is 5/70/10... 14 points over-budget.

Can't have everything, and I do see room for 3 or 4 more points.. no need for more.
Knaughty wrote:Need to clear 10 points from Prot, and move deflection to rank 1, and we still face more difficult trade-offs than prot warriors.

Looking at warrior PvE specs:
• Fury is more a case of "meh... where do I put my last few points, it all a bit so-so"
• Prot 5/5/58 is "done" - you have 3 points left to stick somewhere "decent".

Prot warriors actually tend to get 3/3 tclap too, so 8/5/55.
Knaughty wrote:Vs ret/prot:
• Prot is stupidly huge
• Ret is close to OK. Standard PvE build looks like 0/5/66, with everything PvE except Imp. Ret Aura. To be even with Fury, it needs 5 points trimmed out.

Still, overall I'm quite pleased, other than going back to the "10%" mitigation gap we faced in 2.0.

I can't see Holy/Ret staying as-is. 48/0/23 looks tons better than 51+ Holy. Unless the idea is to move the nasty trade-off that priests had between CoH and Imp Spirit to Paladins instead.

Still, at least it's an interesting trade-off: Bigger heals and a HoT, vs AE heal.
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Postby Gamingdevil » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:05 am

I haven't really read the rest of the thread, but here's what I would do:

Make BoK and Holy Shield baseline.
Fix Redoubt or at least remove the friggin' arrow between it and Shield Spec.
Merge some talents, for instance:
-Guarded by the Light and Divine Guardian, the name fits already
-Improved Righteous Fury, Improved Devotion Aura and Shield Specialization: mix and match to combine 2

The mergers are merely a suggestion, the 2 first points are a must imo.
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Postby moduspwnens » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:10 am

Until we see the raiding gear, it's not clear that Redoubt is useless.
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Postby Gamingdevil » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:23 am

Well true enough, but it could be a lot more usefull. A flat in crease in block chance (like warriors have) is imo a lot better than a chance within a chance to get extra blockrating, especially since Holy Shield will run out next to never, even if you do decide to skip the improved version.
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Postby moduspwnens » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:25 am

Gamingdevil wrote:Well true enough, but it could be a lot more usefull. A flat in crease in block chance (like warriors have) is imo a lot better than a chance within a chance to get extra blockrating, especially since Holy Shield will run out next to never, even if you do decide to skip the improved version.


I'd take Redoubt over a passive 5% chance to block.
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Postby Fizzgig » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:27 am

moduspwnens wrote:Until we see the raiding gear, it's not clear that Redoubt is useless.


I can't believe that a proc based talent would ever be a necessity in tanking, who knows though.

I think if you dropped deflection down to t1 by swapping it with Blessing of Might you'd free up 5 points for a lot of people and make things a ton easier.
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Postby jere » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:46 am

One thing I have thought about, and am still not totally sure I like, but maybe switching Divine Strength and Benediction. That would free up points for both ret and prot pallies if they wanted to. Given that we don't have to reseal after every judgement, it won't be as big of a loss for those who decide not to take Benediction, and it would pretty much give us an avenue to Deflection that gives greater benefit.

Still on the fence on this idea, but it has been floating around in my head for a bit.
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Postby moduspwnens » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:48 am

Fizzgig wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:Until we see the raiding gear, it's not clear that Redoubt is useless.


I can't believe that a proc based talent would ever be a necessity in tanking, who knows though.


Well, I'm assuming crushing blows are removed. It wouldn't be a "necessity," but it when it would proc, it would give you 60% chance to block with Holy Shield up. We won't know whether or not it's useful until we see how high our avoidance will be.
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Postby agamemnoch » Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:19 pm

Eltiana wrote:As said above I'd change redoubt to 3 points instead of 5.

I'd take out Imp Holy shield and make the abilities it gave baseline.

I'd take out Spell warding and mix it with Imp RF so it would give a total of 6% reduced damage and an additional 6% Spell damage reduction.

Finally I'd move the stamina increase portion to Combat expertise and make it 3% per talent point = 15% stam increase(Yeah I know, 1% less) and combine the rest of Sacred Duty with Divine Guardian, maybe taking out the attack speed penatly reduction if needed.

That would free up a total of 8 talent points.


With it going to 6 baseline, it should be 8 improved with a higher spell dmg coefficient. Making it a 1 pointer is not a HUGE deal but it does free up that point for those who are on the fence about kings, etc.
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Postby agamemnoch » Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:26 pm

So...

I would want redoubt to be 3/3 instead of 5/5 and shield spec can be 1 darn point. Why waste 3, nobody puts only 1 in. Change Imp HS to be a 1 point talent that gives us 2 more charges and increased dmg coefficient.

This is a savings of:

2 on redoubt
2 on shield spec
1 on Imp Holy shield

Those 5 points can go a long way.
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Postby Tev » Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:40 am

Hmm, lets see..

Combine redoubt and shield spec into 1 talent (3 pt).

Combine spell warding into imp Righteous Fury (3 pt).

Combine Reckoning with 1 Hand Spec (5 pt).

Ardent Defender changed to 10/20/30% (3 pt).

15 points saved.

Would help clear up a big chunk of bloat and finally allow some greater customization imo.
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