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A Realization - Raid Balance, hybrids, and WotLK

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Sechs » Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:10 pm

Don't forget that pretty much all party exclusive buffs right now in tbc will be raid buffs in Wotlk.
That will leave alot more flexibility on how you want to build the raids.

For my guild it would probably mean we bring 5 rogues to every raid, As all our rogues are really good and reliably players. xD
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Postby Hollyhell » Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:41 pm

DeadlyRabbit wrote:Raids run with odd class/spec setups all the time, it usually gets down to how well people play their character, the best class/spec setup doesn't do as well as having the best players in the raid, there is always room to adjust.


These are pretty much my thoughts.

I've seen a guild stack rogue heavy and take 1-2 warlocks.

I've seen (current) take 1 rogue on average, 3-4 warlocks, and 1 mage.

You're dependent on class availability for your guild/server, encounter, specs, an entire plethora of things.

IF (and only if) blizzard allows for 2 talent specs, it will allow for greater flexibility in the raid itself. The raid-wide buffs will help as well.

I think Blizz needs to iron out a few more kinks before people really start to see how raids work out.
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Postby Karock » Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:36 pm

Knaughty wrote:
Karock wrote:I find it hilarious that you think being a certain class should guarantee a raid spot over another class.

The fact is that there are Tank slots, Healer slots and DPS slots. There are no "class" slots.

The goal for blizzard SHOULD be that you don't need X number of X class to do X encounter but that you need ~X dps ~X healers ~X tanks. If they reach this point I'll be more than pleased.


There are class slots.

Two shaman (any spec) gives entire raid all totems.

Two paladins (any spec) gives entire raid Kings + might/wis (pick one). Personally, I think you aim for three: ret/prot/holy, so you get all three Auras (& all three blessings on ret/enhance).

One mage/druid/priest/warlock (imp) for buffs.

But there's 25 raid slots now, and 30 specs. Thank god some look to be PvP only (Arms/Unholy/Disc for starters)

Pure DPS get fewer slots, due to continued boosting of "hybrids".

=EDIT=

Only easy way I cas see to avoid some rather nasty guild-makeup issues is to drop required healer numbers to about 6 instead of 8.


That's min/max which my guild certainly isn't. We don't always run three paladin for blessings. Those things are nice, not necessary.
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Postby Damiun » Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:52 pm

I'm honestly looking for a raid setup like this:
Garenteed spots:
Tanks (3):
Prot Warr
Death Knight
Prot Pally

Melee DPS(4):
Feral Druid
Fury Warr
Ret Paladin
Enhance Shaman

Ranged DPS(6):
Survival hunter
Spriest
Warlock
Mage
Boomkin
Ele Shaman

Healers (5):
Holy Priest
Disp Priest
Holy Paladin
Resto Druid
Resto Shaman

That is 18 slots. Allowing 7 slots fot whatever.
You get almost every possible raid buff/debuff, plus can bring however many more healers (2-3) and then the dps (4-5).
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Postby Ryu » Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:45 am

There are no fixed class slots, rather there are slots for the 25 best players.
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Postby ulushnar » Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:47 am

Ryu wrote:There are no fixed class slots, rather there are slots for the 25 best players.


Go in with a tank and 24 rogues. see how far you get. ;)
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Postby Jtree » Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:59 am

Snake-Aes wrote:
Jtree wrote:
DeadMilliken wrote:Disc Priests are able to provide shadow priest mana utility, heal respecably at the same time, and provide additional raid utility.


Blizz has already nerfed that. The Rapture talent now only gives mana back to the priest, not to his party.
I already see full disc, inspiration Discpriests as the new raid "IDS" priest.
The mana returns from rapture reduce the need for mana regen, and with the spellpower change, you can use a "warlock item" to heal with high crit and high healing power. Add in all those +%armor, free PW:Shield, free 6% damage reduction from crits/heals, and you have a godsend for tank healing.

I MEAN C'MON! High inspiration uptime, just as high power word shield uptime, AND free 6% reduction, free 6% more heals on you?


I want the mana battery too!!!!!!!!!
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Postby Manius » Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:49 am

Disc priests seem to rely on dropping shields on the tank. The blue rage bar will be unhappy when it's cockblocked by some random priest's sheath in heroics ;|

Also. Guardian Spirit. It's like pre-nerf Cheat Death for tanks. And I don't see it causing anything like forebearance or whatever the priest debuff is.

Does this stack with multiple priests? I can't see Blizzard allowing that, but at least 3 holy priests could chain guardians.
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Postby Soltyr » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:47 am

Ryu wrote:There are no fixed class slots, rather there are slots for the 25 best players.


(imho) Talking about 25men, bliz expect you to bring an average of 1-2 of each class, while every class has its own baseline role/ability, no matter the spec. What is fixed now, bliz doesn't expect you to bring so many specific "spec" with restricted party setup options.

Building a raid with the right spec/roles (tank/healer/dps) is another point.
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Postby Soltyr » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:51 am

Manius wrote:Disc priests seem to rely on dropping shields on the tank. The blue rage bar will be unhappy when it's cockblocked by some random priest's sheath in heroics ;|

Also. Guardian Spirit. It's like pre-nerf Cheat Death for tanks. And I don't see it causing anything like forebearance or whatever the priest debuff is.

Does this stack with multiple priests? I can't see Blizzard allowing that, but at least 3 holy priests could chain guardians.


3min c/d with 10sec duration.
A nice ability indeed, but I doubt you are going to rely on that at the point to stack holy priests.
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Postby jere » Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:10 am

Soltyr wrote:
3min c/d with 10sec duration.
A nice ability indeed, but I doubt you are going to rely on that at the point to stack holy priests.


Pshaw! All you need is like 18 priests for that. Make it so! :)
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Postby DeadMilliken » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:00 am

Jtree wrote:
I want the mana battery too!!!!!!!!!


I just found out this morning (*I didn't catch your reply till now)

-_-

I sooo wanted a healer mana battery...
(*And ret looks too unpredictable in that area)
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Postby Dragonzbane » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:01 am

Knaughty wrote:
But there's 25 raid slots now, and 30 specs. Thank god some look to be PvP only (Arms/Unholy/Disc for starters)



Arms isn't a PvP only spec and Discipline won't be after the Exp hits.
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Postby Baelor » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:10 am

Despite anything that's been said to this point, one simple fact remains. Unless the healer ratio changes in Northrend 25-mans, we're looking at raids with...

3 tanks (4 classes to choose from)
14+ DPS (10 classes to choose from)
8ish healers (4 classes to choose from)

Even if my tank and DPS numbers are a little off, healing is the only role that there are less classes available than there are needs for raids. Even if I'm a dumbass for thinking that diversity in specs is a good thing for raids and you should stack what's best, class parity be damned, there's still no getting around the fact that you'll have to double up on resto/holy buggers to achieve the heal minimum, where-as you don't necessarily have to double up on fire mages or protection warriors or combat rogues if you don't want to - there are other DPS/tank-capable classes you can bring to fill that role.
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Postby Jonlo » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:17 am

Ulushnar wrote:
Ryu wrote:There are no fixed class slots, rather there are slots for the 25 best players.


Go in with a tank and 24 rogues. see how far you get. ;)


Find me 24 good rogues first.
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