How would you clean up the prot tree?

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Postby moduspwnens » Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:27 pm

Magnusharkov wrote:Modus: I know what you mean but its looking very likely that with new itemisation divine strength will be another 'must have' talent.


I doubt this. It's been circulating around, but I just don't think it's the case.

A) Warriors don't even like Strength.
B) Death Knights attacking from the front will likely favor expertise and hit.
C) Only one of our attacks will scale on strength (two if you count white damage), and that one doesn't necessarily benefit highly on it. It says, "this ability causes high threat." So, like, say, Sunder Armor, the threat likely won't be determined solely by the damage, and being that it's hitting for weapon damage from a tank (lol), it's never going to hit for that much.
D) The AP to Spellpower talent is deep in the Retribution tree.

If Blizzard planned to put a bunch of strength on the gear, the AP to Spellpower talent would be available to us. They didn't, so I doubt it will be important to us. I think the talent tree I posted would be the best way to spec as a Prot Paladin.

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZV0tIgczMxqeoGoV0x
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Postby Modal » Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:21 pm

Rumors from the beta indicate that lots of our threat abilities scale with AP now, even SoR and SoV. Furthermore, with a 2 Str = 1 BV conversion rate, Strength is likely to become an important mitigation stat, especially for paladins with Holy Shield. I'm thinking Divine Strength might very well be a must-have, at least at high levels of gear.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:27 pm

Modal wrote:Rumors from the beta indicate that lots of our threat abilities scale with AP now, even SoR and SoV. Furthermore, with a 2 Str = 1 BV conversion rate, Strength is likely to become an important mitigation stat, especially for paladins with Holy Shield. I'm thinking Divine Strength might very well be a must-have, at least at high levels of gear.


I didn't hear about those things, but even if they are true, there would have to be strength on our gear for it to matter much, as 15% of base strength isn't much.
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Postby Modal » Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:33 pm

There will be lots of strength gear for tanks. They want us to wear the same gear as warriors and death knights. Strength will give all 3 threat/dps, while giving BV to warriors and paladins and parry rating to death knight tanks (via a tier 2 Blood tree talent).
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Postby moduspwnens » Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:47 pm

Modal wrote:There will be lots of strength gear for tanks. They want us to wear the same gear as warriors and death knights. Strength will give all 3 threat/dps, while giving BV to warriors and paladins and parry rating to death knight tanks (via a tier 2 Blood tree talent).


Where did they change the strength to block value mechanic, and where have you read SoR and SoV scale well on strength?
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Postby Modal » Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:16 pm

For scaling with AP info:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=8202602392&sid=2000 as well as other posts on the beta paladin forums

For Str:BV conversion see our very own beta testing thread:

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/viewtopic.php?t=10948

Not sure what the original source is for that, but I'm seeing it all over the place.

P.S. I'm not yet saying they scale well with AP--I have no idea what the coefficient is.
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Postby Songblade » Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:20 pm

moduspwnens wrote:
Magnusharkov wrote:Modus: I know what you mean but its looking very likely that with new itemisation divine strength will be another 'must have' talent.


I doubt this. It's been circulating around, but I just don't think it's the case.

A) Warriors don't even like Strength.
B) Death Knights attacking from the front will likely favor expertise and hit.
C) Only one of our attacks will scale on strength (two if you count white damage), and that one doesn't necessarily benefit highly on it. It says, "this ability causes high threat." So, like, say, Sunder Armor, the threat likely won't be determined solely by the damage, and being that it's hitting for weapon damage from a tank (lol), it's never going to hit for that much.
D) The AP to Spellpower talent is deep in the Retribution tree.

If Blizzard planned to put a bunch of strength on the gear, the AP to Spellpower talent would be available to us. They didn't, so I doubt it will be important to us. I think the talent tree I posted would be the best way to spec as a Prot Paladin.

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZV0tIgczMxqeoGoV0x


And even then, there are 3 abilities that would scale with AP, white damage, ShoR and HotR
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Postby moduspwnens » Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:37 pm

Songblade wrote:And even then, there are 3 abilities that would scale with AP, white damage, ShoR and HotR


I thought Shield of the Righteous scales with BV, right?

EDIT: OK, then it would scale off of strength specifically, as that scales up block value.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:42 pm

Modal wrote:For scaling with AP info:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=8202602392&sid=2000 as well as other posts on the beta paladin forums

For Str:BV conversion see our very own beta testing thread:

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/viewtopic.php?t=10948

Not sure what the original source is for that, but I'm seeing it all over the place.

P.S. I'm not yet saying they scale well with AP--I have no idea what the coefficient is.


Well you got me there, then. If those screenshots are as clear-cut as they appear, Divine Strength likely will be part of any cookie cutter spec, and strength will almost assuredly be on our gear.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:37 pm

I put togther a warrior build that I liked very much without having to trade off on anything.

Still impossible with Paladins.

WARRIORS STILL BETTER amirite?

(that's a joke)
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Postby moduspwnens » Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:42 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:I put togther a warrior build that I liked very much without having to trade off on anything.

Still impossible with Paladins.

WARRIORS STILL BETTER amirite?

(that's a joke)


I put together a Paladin build I really liked until I found out it'll probably need Divine Strength in there.
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Postby knaughty » Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:17 pm

More or less what the OP said.

Warrior tanking tree is 8 points lighter, and has more abilities baseline that we need to talent into.
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Postby Eltiana » Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:04 pm

Oh....BLessing Of Sanctuary....They either need to buff it a hella lot to make it worthwile to use over Kings...or more likely, get rid of it alltogether, and put Kings in its place. If they're not going to make Kings baseline, put it deep in the prot tree, and force raids to take us along 8)
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Postby Jtree » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:08 pm

First piece of defense rated gear I've seen linked out of the beta:

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/wotlk/ingameshots/loot/ring_tankring70req.jpg

Portent of the future, or an oddly itemized BoE? Time will tell.
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Postby knaughty » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:29 pm

Level 70 Tank Ring
Blue quality.
280 Armor
28 Stamina
19 Strength
19 Defence.

After talents, Kings & conversions, also add:

12 spell power
13? Block Value.
54? AP

So it ends up with three threat stats and a second mitigation stat on it, due to the very nice conversions.

I have no strength on my tanking gear - had a look at our warrior tank (tanked Brute for us last night) - his gear has +19 Str on it. (lol)

But if strength roughly matches defence in Wrath, you'd expect at least 200 on gear - perhaps about 400? 500? at level 80.

Divine Strength 5/5 = 15% is 75 str, only 50 BV. Even if you had 1k Str, only 100 BV.

Vs +30% BV for 8 talent points in redoubt/Shield spec. That would have to be 300+, surely? I can run 1k BV now, you'd assume at least that much for level 80 (if BV gear is available....)
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