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How would you clean up the prot tree?

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How would you clean up the prot tree?

Postby Magnusharkov » Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:52 am

Ok, so we all know that in the current version of the beta talent trees everything is looking very bloated.

My analysis of the problem:

In terms of sheer talent points in a tree prot paladins have the biggest tree to have to pick from.
Warriors - 77 Talent points
Druids - 73 Talent points
Paladins - 80 Talent points
Death knights - I'm completely ignorant on DK talent specs. But the trees weigh in at 77/78/78

On top of this paladins have a core defensive talent (parry) in Tier 2 of the retribution tree with no real useful talent in tier 1 to get to it. To the best of my knowledge no other tanking class is forced to take an essentially useless 5 point tier 1 talent to get to a core tanking talent in tier 2. This leaves paladins at a very rough 8 talent point disadvantage to other tanking classes. There is also my entirely subjective view that the prot tree has a lot less easily skippable talents in it than in the druid or warrior tanking trees but I won't properly include this in my reasoning.

So anyway, in my opinion we would be absolutely justified in requesting a cleaned up prot tree based on the current situation. However I don't think it would require to drastic a change for the trees to be considered 'fair'

If it was me the first thing I would do would be to swap the position of divine strength and benediction, leaving divine strength (logically) in the retribution tree. This gives us a useful Tier 1 talent point that we can use to get to parry in Tier 2 without wasting 5 points.

The second obvious contender for me is redoubt and shield spec. At a minimum these 2 talents should be unlinked in my opinion. A better solution would be for them to be combined into one 5 point T2 talent which has the effect of both.

The third thing that I feel needs looking at are all the 5 point talents later down the tree like reckoning, ardent defender, combat expertise and 1HWS. If just 1 or 2 of these could be trimmed down to 4 or 3 point talents with the same effect then it would clear up a very large amount of breathing room in this part of the tree.

The last thing I have issue with is blessing of sanctuary being required for holy shield. However I have faith that this blessing is set to recieve a makeover before wotlk comes out.

Anyway, these are my ideas. Just out of interest how would you guys handle the talent trees if you were trying to slim them down a little.
Last edited by Magnusharkov on Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby QuantumDelta » Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:03 am

The 5 point talents that haven't been condensed like redoubt, reckoning, toughness and 1handed weapon specialisation are the first places I would look.
Reck and 1HWS condense together fairly well imo, and redoubt can be folded into SS.
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Postby Modal » Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:43 am

IMO Ardent Defender should be a 3 point investment. Make it equal to the number of points for Last Stand + Imp. Shield Wall.

Redoubt should be 3 points as well, for 10/20/30% block chance.

Blessing of Sanctuary either needs to be removed or fixed to actually be a high-priority buff on tanks.

In the ret tree (which could also use some consolidation to help tankadins) Imp. BoM could be 2 points for 10%/20%, like Imp. BoW, Benediction could be 3 points, and Deflection could be moved to tier 1. This would also make Holy/Ret hybrids (which will be a popular build) much more likely to pick up Imp. BoM, which very often gets passed over. Moving PoJ to tier 2 would also be nice and force some more hard choices.

Those small changes would ease a lot of the pressure. I can get all of the talents I really feel I need as a raid tank, while still having a few points left over to make some choices with (Benediction/Imp. Judgements, Seals of the Pure, or Reckoning? Should I try to squeeze in Divine Guardian?)
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Postby Eltiana » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:30 am

As said above I'd change redoubt to 3 points instead of 5.

I'd take out Imp Holy shield and make the abilities it gave baseline.

I'd take out Spell warding and mix it with Imp RF so it would give a total of 6% reduced damage and an additional 6% Spell damage reduction.

Finally I'd move the stamina increase portion to Combat expertise and make it 3% per talent point = 15% stam increase(Yeah I know, 1% less) and combine the rest of Sacred Duty with Divine Guardian, maybe taking out the attack speed penatly reduction if needed.

That would free up a total of 8 talent points.
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Postby Obrimos » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:31 am

Hrm...

I'd fold Imp Righteous Fury into Toughness. Have it be 2/3/4/5/6% decrease in damage taken.

I'd combine Divine Guardian and Sacred Duty into the same talent...

And add Spell Warding to Guarded by the Light.

This would free up...7 talent points, it looks like.
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Postby Damiun » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:40 am

put divine strength into the ret tree at tier 2 (in place of deflection).

put deflection up one slot in place of benediction.

put benediction in the ret tree in t1.

move anticipation left one slot

move redoubt/shield spec up one tier each


move blessing of kings to the HOLY TREE (this singlehandedly solves all wow problems)

remove spell warding, have judgements of the just duty also decrease spell damage dealt by the boss by 3%/6%

frees up 8 points but puts a useful talent into ret t1 tree. would also free up 5 talents in ret tree to play with
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Postby Modal » Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:02 am

Honestly, 8 points is too much. We can't expect to get every talent we might like to have without having to make some tough choices. I think just making Redoubt and Ardent Defender 3 points each, for a total gain of 4 points, would take off a lot of the pressure from talent bloat and let us make actually interesting tradeoffs between, a few mid-tier Prot talents and some of the low-tier Holy/Ret talents.
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Postby Obrimos » Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:11 am

Modal wrote:Honestly, 8 points is too much. We can't expect to get every talent we might like to have without having to make some tough choices. I think just making Redoubt and Ardent Defender 3 points each, for a total gain of 4 points, would take off a lot of the pressure from talent bloat and let us make actually interesting tradeoffs between, a few mid-tier Prot talents and some of the low-tier Holy/Ret talents.


Condensing down 6-8 points would bring us within a point of the total output of the other two main tanks (Warriors and Druids). Right now our tree is 69 total available slots, while a Warrior's is only 62, and a Druid's is 56. Granted, there are talents outside of our trees that we all want, for every class, but compared to the other two tanks, we're very bloated.

Seven, at least, would bring is on par with Warriors.
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Postby Modal » Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:21 am

Obrimos wrote:Condensing down 6-8 points would bring us within a point of the total output of the other two main tanks (Warriors and Druids). Right now our tree is 69 total available slots, while a Warrior's is only 62, and a Druid's is 56. Granted, there are talents outside of our trees that we all want, for every class, but compared to the other two tanks, we're very bloated.

Seven, at least, would bring is on par with Warriors.


We're talking WotLK trees, where, as the OP points out, the numbers are 80 pts Prot Paladin and 77 pts Prot Warrior. So 4 points would actually give us a slight edge.

But anyway I don't even know why people use this as a basis for comparison. What matters is what we can buy with our talent points. 8 extra points would mean I could get pretty much everything I want, which is too much.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:47 am

I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here.

I think that giving us (somewhat) tough decisions between talents is fun. How much fun is it to have a cookie cutter spec with all the necessary talents right there to pick up?

I don't see why everyone wouldn't take this build:
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZV0xIgczMxqeoGoVox

Keep in mind, Imp Holy Shield isn't really needed anymore, as (we're assuming) crushing blows have been removed, we have even more threat moves, and a guaranteed 20% slower attack speed, making Holy Shield threat matter even less.

Reckoning likely won't matter, due to a ridiculous increase in tank threat, but would be available by sacrificing Ardent Defender, much as it is possible to sacrifice it and Precision for Sanctity Aura now.

Spell Warding would be still not worth two talent points, unless encounter design changes.

Stoicism is a typo.

Guarded by the Light is probably only really useful on encounters you're overgeared for, and is probably actually a threat decrease on encounters with hard hitters (due to less mana spent and gained).

Missing one point in improved judgement is not a big deal, as we're gonna have a ton of GCDs anyway, and having one point in it still allows for three judgements in an AW rotation.

...so there's your new MT build. I've been reading these threads since beta info came out, and this is the first time I've seen it proposed. I don't think there's anything wrong with our tree.
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Postby Modal » Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:53 am

moduspwnens wrote:I think that giving us (somewhat) tough decisions between talents is fun. How much fun is it to have a cookie cutter spec with all the necessary talents right there to pick up?


You'll notice that I agree with your first claim. However, if a talent is really necessary, then we'd better be able to pick it up, right? Isn't that what necessary means?

I agree that there are tough choices to be made as things stand. I'd rather see us have to make choices between, for example, extra raid utility (Heart of the Crusader) or more mitigation/threat (Divine Strength) rather than "Which talents that should be baseline for Protection Paladins (Imp. Holy Shield/Spell Warding) can I afford to live without?"
Last edited by Modal on Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Modal » Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:54 am

P.S. Right now BoK is must-have. Your healing paladins are going to be going Holy/Ret (48/0/23 quite likely, but even if they pick up BoL they'll want to get Conviction at least), and you cannot rely on them to have BoK.
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Postby Magnusharkov » Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:10 pm

Modus: I know what you mean but its looking very likely that with new itemisation divine strength will be another 'must have' talent.
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Postby Songblade » Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:13 pm

Actually, what Blizzard needs to do is only add 1 tier of talents to this expansion, but it's probably already too late for that. This would allow classes to go deeper into an alternative tree without sacrificing the bottom talent in their main tree.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:16 pm

Modal wrote:P.S. Right now BoK is must-have. Your healing paladins are going to be going Holy/Ret (48/0/23 quite likely, but even if they pick up BoL they'll want to get Conviction at least), and you cannot rely on them to have BoK.


Ahh, I forgot this. So, we'll want to pick up Kings, too. This then:
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZV0tIgczMxqeoGoV0x

That's what I'll be planning.
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