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Wrath Protection Paladins made out like THEIVES!

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Nakama » Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:22 pm

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0tIx0dMgqeoGoVcx0h

That's the build I'll probably have at 80. I like it!

--Jed
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Postby guillex » Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:27 pm

Nakama wrote:http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0tIx0dMgqeoGoVcx0h

That's the build I'll probably have at 80. I like it!

--Jed


No DG? No GbtL?

:O

SHUN! SHUN! SHUN!

:P
Póg mo thóin
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Postby Tumleren » Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:44 am

Nakama wrote:http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0tIx0dMgqeoGoVcx0h

That's the build I'll probably have at 80. I like it!

--Jed


Hm, I'd take Guarded by the Light over Jugdement of the Just - As far as i remember, we want more hits to do more threat, and a 20% decreased speed doesnt exactly help this; or is this also going to be changed since we get more 'active' threat-generating spells?

Besides, lower mana cost on those things is a pretty big bonus in my book :>
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Postby jere » Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:52 am

Tumleren wrote:
Nakama wrote:http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0tIx0dMgqeoGoVcx0h

That's the build I'll probably have at 80. I like it!

--Jed


Hm, I'd take Guarded by the Light over Jugdement of the Just - As far as i remember, we want more hits to do more threat, and a 20% decreased speed doesnt exactly help this; or is this also going to be changed since we get more 'active' threat-generating spells?

Besides, lower mana cost on those things is a pretty big bonus in my book :>


As you progress, Holy Shield starts to do less overall threat than the rest of your abilities due to scaling. Usually at those levels it is also equally important to reduce Boss incoming damage. A 20% swing reduction is a huge amount of damage mitigation. The extra amount of threat you would get by not using it is minimal. Using it is the better tradeoff by far.

In essence as you progress 20% attack speed reduction >>> partial loss of holy shield threat
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Postby Obrimos » Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:12 am

Tumleren wrote:or is this also going to be changed since we get more 'active' threat-generating spells?


Yep; we get a nice shield-slam like ability that does much more threat than a Holy Shield strike would (Right now on me, it'd be 600+ Holy damage, and my BV's kinda low) and we get Hammer of the Righteous which, either way, is probably going to be much more threat than a Holy Shield strike.

The real way to answer this question, though, would require knowledge of how much Holy Shield hits for at 80 and how much BV we'll have.
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Postby Morendin » Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:40 am

Obrimos wrote:
Morendin wrote:that depends on the stam? No...just no. the stat budget for the bonuses on a weapon of any kinda is tiny compared to the budget for DPS/Spellpower.

When it's a combination weapon, yes, but specialized weapons with massive amounts of stats geared toward a specific thing isn't unheard of (and has a major precident, namely Druid weapons as I mentioned above).

We could easily be seeing 100+ stam weapons in the future where all it is amounts to something like 150 Stamina, 135.8 DPS, 2.0 speed, One Hand, "Equip: Grants 200 Spellpower while Righteous Fury is active, 100 Attack Power while in Defensive Stance, and 150 Spellpower while Frost Pressence is active."

The budget is there, and Blizzard is talking about moving toward more flexible weapons and items for shared-specs, like Arms warriors to Ret pallies and all the plate-wearing tanks.

Morendin wrote:They put basically the same stam on every weapon these days...and even if they blew the whole budget on it(horribly inefficient) you'd be talking about maybe 4-50 stam when we have 30k HP pools.


And you're using the current itemization scheme to justify me being out and out wrong when we know itemization is going to change again. Not in points, but in paradigm.

Morendin wrote:Every who's going "Now we'll get real tank weapons that warriors use!!!!" take a good, hard LOOK at the 'tank stats' on a couple of those.
HINT: 22 defense is not the end of the world.


It could be important, though, especially since we don't have a Defense talent anymore.

Morendin wrote:ap/strength? irrelevent. base weapon dps is just added to the dps AP gives you, the threat difference between melee caster weapons, whatever it ends up being on live servers, is exactly the same whether you have 1 ap or 10000(it does, however, select for the slowest possible weapon unless Hammer is normalized)


I'm pretty sure I've heard that Hammer scales with Attack Power in a similar fashion to how SoR scales with Spell Power.

I seriously doubt we'll need much more spell power beyond the amount gained via Stamina. 30% of our Stamina is a lot, and we'll probably be seeing high amounts of Stamina to compensate for the adjustment in ideals behind Raid boss damage.



Sir, 'more flexable weapons' != 'gaming the itemization system to make Tanking-only weapons that are of no use to non-tanking players.
Recall that they also want to make it easier for tanks/healers to do a bit of damage or outright respec without a full gear swap. There is no justification for making pure tanking weapons(especially since they want, at a minimum, DKs to have the option of tanking with 2h weapons, which would be a spec unique item if they can't tank with an arms/ret/DK DPS 2hander.

EDIT:

yes, AP/STR do nice things for Hammer. HOWEVER, that does NOT increase the value of a warrior weapon. STR/AP/Crit only select for a SLOW weapon.

If a weapon is 3.0 speed(no decent 1handers are this slow, using for easy math):
if you have 0 AP:
40 DPS on the weapon= 120 damage Hammers
140 DPS on the weapon=420 damage Hammers
Difference= weapon speed * DPS difference

if you have 1400 AP, for 100 DPS from AP
40 DPS=420 Hammer
140 DPS 720 Hammer
Difference is the same 300 damage from the 100 base DPS difference.

The effect of the potential bonus stats on the weapon(which MUST remain usable for more than tanking, even if it's not perfect..IE, The Brutalizer wastes 22 statpoints on Defense, but if all the tanks have it and your Fury's offhand is from T5, it's a perfectly good upgrade.) is VERY small compared to the effect of trading DPS for spell damage, and unless threat on Hammer is multiplied by 50-100%, we will be swinging our 41.4 caster weapons.
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Re: Wrath Protection Paladins made out like THEIVES!

Postby protonly » Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:55 pm

Warcraft wrote:I could tell you about the first day that paladin tanking was made possible in TBC beta, when I specced it and people's first reaction was not even disbelief, but genuine surprise. "Wait, they let paladins tank now?".


I was prot towards the end of vanilla wow and all prot for BC until we needed healers for my guild of friends. Man, I remember those days of having my toon called a joke because I was prot...I still cringe at how horrible itemization is/was. I remember when all the tanking plate in kara was Classes: Warrior. I remember people asking me while i as in LFG, as lvl 70 with kara min blues gear, "Um, you're prot...are you capable of tanking ramparts or underbog?" I mean, to even question a classes capability to tank something 10 levels below your toon. Oh and don't forget the endless "small health pool" jokes. (Which were fixed to some degree).

I mean, with all the abilities mentioned, the little changes are "crap your pants" good. Devotion aura increases healing? Wow. Raids will be required to have at least one prot pally for ALL fights (not just gimmiks as the whiners like to say) just for some of the things we bring (ahem devo aura, raid shield wall, etc).

Prot is so good now, and ret looks so good, you might not see holy pallys anymore. And this is coming from when I can remember when like 90% of all 70 pallys were holy.
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Re: Wrath Protection Paladins made out like THEIVES!

Postby snowwight » Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:54 pm

protonly wrote:I was prot towards the end of vanilla wow and all prot for BC until we needed healers for my guild of friends. Man, I remember those days of having my toon called a joke because I was prot...I still cringe at how horrible itemization is/was.


Pff, outlands itemization was great compared to the Deathbone set.

Anyway, lots of good stuff, though with all these new abilities I'm somewhat worried we'll be needing mana/5 once again...
Tankadin since before it was a good idea
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Postby Caelia » Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:46 pm

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0tIgczRgqeRGoV0x

May come back for wrath....

*Wish's redoubt didn't exist and Imp SoR replaced it*
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All Retired: Holy Priest:Appletons | DK Blood Tank: Dreadborne | Prot Paladin: Welsh
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Postby Mavrix » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:44 pm

Caelia wrote:
*Wishes redoubt didn't exist and Imp SoR replaced it*


QFMT
If necessity is the mother of invention, laziness must be the father.

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http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... n&n=Mavrix
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Postby Saphier » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:19 am

We are getting the ability to give an entire raid a 30% shield wall every 4 minutes. All you need is a tank switch.


Which ability is this? Because the only thing it seemed like we were lacking is a panic button. Ideally replacing Blessing of Sanctuary.

Well, that and a single target taunt that doesn't randomly disappear when the mob changes targets as we're taunting.
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Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:51 am

Divine guardian I think it is called. But I'm not sure if that will a tankadin talent or not.
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Postby Caelia » Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:56 am

Fridmarr wrote:Divine guardian I think it is called. But I'm not sure if that will a tankadin talent or not.


Divine Guardian it is a 2 rank talent so 15%/30%.

And i could easily see a holy paladin doing something like:

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sxA0xGzhVuMxktVGzhRc

to gain access to it with addition to the imp devo. Also getting kings.
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Postby kalbear » Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:04 am

Lay on Hands is a pretty decent panic button now that it restores full health at no mana cost and only has a 20 min cooldown. It's not the same, but it's certainly reasonable.

Hm, I'd take Guarded by the Light over Jugdement of the Just - As far as i remember, we want more hits to do more threat, and a 20% decreased speed doesnt exactly help this; or is this also going to be changed since we get more 'active' threat-generating spells?

20% decreased speed is an essential debuff on bosses. Paladins having this is a huge step for them being able to tank things without having a pet fury warrior or requiring them to have deathfrost.
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Postby Marsha » Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:51 am

Lore wrote:Special attacks don't crit, but yes, it seems like they're just trying to make Defense a skill you want more of on your gear.


We have yet to see much (if any) higher end items but note that the new profession Inscription has a glyph that adds +20 defense and a lot of items green items I've seen drop have defense on them so i doubt reaching the cap will be an issue like it was when TBC was released.

Removing Anticipation was a smart move IMO and freed up some of the still filler talents in the protection tree.
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