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Wrath Protection Paladins made out like THEIVES!

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Lore » Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:07 am

Karock wrote:
aranil wrote:I'm not sure if this true, but I don't think I've ever been critted while I've managed to get a block in, so while I'm not too happy about the changes to antipation, I think, if they don't change HS, while it's going to hurt as all hell, we do have a small fall back....although, I'm not sure. I have about 515-520 defense now, but I also know that 20 point lost is also going to affect our avoidance, which if I remember is

1 point of defense=0.16 avoidance
0.16x20= 3.2 over all avoidance
(Not sure on my math, isn't 1 defense=0.04 Miss, parry, dodge, and block?)

So, we gain 1.8% avoidance, so it's actually better, right?


While you can't be crit by things that miss you, or that you dodge, parry or block, there are a multitude of unblockable special attacks and other circumstances that would allow you to be crit without the proper defense cap.

That said I doubt Blizzard will make reaching the defense cap not feasible for us in WotlK with or without our talent.


Special attacks don't crit, but yes, it seems like they're just trying to make Defense a skill you want more of on your gear.
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Postby Karock » Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:16 am

Fair enough =P
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Postby randomjibberish » Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:35 pm

Obrimos wrote:
randomjibberish wrote:I wanna see some of the epic fist fights resulting in every healer (minus paladins) and every caster DPSer rolling on the first lvl 80 epic spell power dagger that drops in a 25 man raid.

While I sit back and drink lemonade.

Then prepare for the fight I'm going to have when that first spell power mace drops.

Maybe I'll go steal a caster sword. Mages and warlocks don't heal me.


We may not use spellpower weapons any more.

We may be using the same weapons as Warriors.

What makes you think that we'll never end up in a situation where a large amount of aoe tanking is needed? I'd rather do less threat on 3 mobs and get an increase on everything else.

Not to mention it can always double as a healing weapon. Free offspec lewtz.
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Postby Obrimos » Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:44 pm

randomjibberish wrote:
Obrimos wrote:
randomjibberish wrote:I wanna see some of the epic fist fights resulting in every healer (minus paladins) and every caster DPSer rolling on the first lvl 80 epic spell power dagger that drops in a 25 man raid.

While I sit back and drink lemonade.

Then prepare for the fight I'm going to have when that first spell power mace drops.

Maybe I'll go steal a caster sword. Mages and warlocks don't heal me.


We may not use spellpower weapons any more.

We may be using the same weapons as Warriors.

What makes you think that we'll never end up in a situation where a large amount of aoe tanking is needed? I'd rather do less threat on 3 mobs and get an increase on everything else.

Not to mention it can always double as a healing weapon. Free offspec lewtz.


It still really depends on how much stamina the weapons have on them. We may never run into a situation where the difference of 120 spellpower compared to the mitigation stats on the tanking weapon will be.

There may be times we'll want, deffinetly times we'll want, a spell damage weapon, but I don't know if we'll ever need one.

(And we may start seeing swords and such that have Warrior AND Paladin stats on 'em, a la Druid weapons; "Equip: Increases Spellpower by 250 while Righteous Fury is on.")
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Postby Morendin » Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:27 pm

Obrimos wrote:
Morendin wrote:
Obrimos wrote:
randomjibberish wrote:I wanna see some of the epic fist fights resulting in every healer (minus paladins) and every caster DPSer rolling on the first lvl 80 epic spell power dagger that drops in a 25 man raid.

While I sit back and drink lemonade.

Then prepare for the fight I'm going to have when that first spell power mace drops.

Maybe I'll go steal a caster sword. Mages and warlocks don't heal me.


We may not use spellpower weapons any more.

We may be using the same weapons as Warriors.


not unless there's a BIG threat multiplier on Hammer of the Righteous we won't. running the math for two equal iLVL weapons gives a 50%+ advantage on total threat to the spell damage one.


This is also dependent on how much stamina is on a "warrior weapon".

Keep in mind it also scales with AP, and we'll probably be ending up with a lot more Strength than we used to, and that's 2.42 AP per point for us (thanks to Kings).


that depends on the stam? No...just no. the stat budget for the bonuses on a weapon of any kinda is tiny compared to the budget for DPS/Spellpower.
They put basically the same stam on every weapon these days...and even if they blew the whole budget on it(horribly inefficient) you'd be talking about maybe 4-50 stam when we have 30k HP pools.
Every who's going "Now we'll get real tank weapons that warriors use!!!!" take a good, hard LOOK at the 'tank stats' on a couple of those.
HINT: 22 defense is not the end of the world.

ap/strength? irrelevent. base weapon dps is just added to the dps AP gives you, the threat difference between melee caster weapons, whatever it ends up being on live servers, is exactly the same whether you have 1 ap or 10000(it does, however, select for the slowest possible weapon unless Hammer is normalized)
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Re: Wrath Protection Paladins made out like THEIVES!

Postby Haganomir » Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:36 pm

Warcraft wrote:And how Retribution Paladins now restore health, restore mana, buff damage, and buff haste, like some sort of a Feral Boomkin Shadow Priest with totems.

I laughed so hard. 3 Posts here and I already love you!
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Postby Dorvan » Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:38 pm

Obrimos wrote:It still really depends on how much stamina the weapons have on them. We may never run into a situation where the difference of 120 spellpower compared to the mitigation stats on the tanking weapon will be.

There may be times we'll want, deffinetly times we'll want, a spell damage weapon, but I don't know if we'll ever need one.

(And we may start seeing swords and such that have Warrior AND Paladin stats on 'em, a la Druid weapons; "Equip: Increases Spellpower by 250 while Righteous Fury is on.")


Unless 1H weapons start having 400 stamina on them....the spell power gain of a caster weapon will be very significant. 120? Weapons in TBC already have upwards of 250 spellpower, and it's only going up from there. As if stands, that's a huge benefit for AoE tanking compared to the very small amount of tanking stats weapons have. The main question right now is whether HotR is dependant on melee stats enough to make us want to use a melee weapon for single target tanking.
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Postby jere » Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:40 pm

Dorvan wrote:The main question right now is whether HotR is dependant on melee stats enough to make us want to use a melee weapon for single target tanking.


And if it is a big enough threat component in our rotation that increasing your melee dmg to up it will overshadow an increase of 260+ spell dmg.
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Postby Obrimos » Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:47 pm

Morendin wrote:that depends on the stam? No...just no. the stat budget for the bonuses on a weapon of any kinda is tiny compared to the budget for DPS/Spellpower.

When it's a combination weapon, yes, but specialized weapons with massive amounts of stats geared toward a specific thing isn't unheard of (and has a major precident, namely Druid weapons as I mentioned above).

We could easily be seeing 100+ stam weapons in the future where all it is amounts to something like 150 Stamina, 135.8 DPS, 2.0 speed, One Hand, "Equip: Grants 200 Spellpower while Righteous Fury is active, 100 Attack Power while in Defensive Stance, and 150 Spellpower while Frost Pressence is active."

The budget is there, and Blizzard is talking about moving toward more flexible weapons and items for shared-specs, like Arms warriors to Ret pallies and all the plate-wearing tanks.

Morendin wrote:They put basically the same stam on every weapon these days...and even if they blew the whole budget on it(horribly inefficient) you'd be talking about maybe 4-50 stam when we have 30k HP pools.


And you're using the current itemization scheme to justify me being out and out wrong when we know itemization is going to change again. Not in points, but in paradigm.

Morendin wrote:Every who's going "Now we'll get real tank weapons that warriors use!!!!" take a good, hard LOOK at the 'tank stats' on a couple of those.
HINT: 22 defense is not the end of the world.


It could be important, though, especially since we don't have a Defense talent anymore.

Morendin wrote:ap/strength? irrelevent. base weapon dps is just added to the dps AP gives you, the threat difference between melee caster weapons, whatever it ends up being on live servers, is exactly the same whether you have 1 ap or 10000(it does, however, select for the slowest possible weapon unless Hammer is normalized)


I'm pretty sure I've heard that Hammer scales with Attack Power in a similar fashion to how SoR scales with Spell Power.

I seriously doubt we'll need much more spell power beyond the amount gained via Stamina. 30% of our Stamina is a lot, and we'll probably be seeing high amounts of Stamina to compensate for the adjustment in ideals behind Raid boss damage.
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Postby ulushnar » Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:55 pm

I think it's safe to assume that level 80 blues will be roughly analogous to the best level 70 epics (compare Warp Splinter's Thorn to The Hungering Cold). So taking that as a baseline, I'm gonna assume that the basic blue one-handers will be 114 DPs weapons.

Even if Ulu's Strength and AP don't increase anymore from their current values, he's got 444 AP, which is 31.7 DPS. Assuming we go for a one-hander with a 2.6 speed, then it'll do an average of 379 damage per swing, which is 720 threat to each of the three targets. If used every 6 secs, then it'll be 120 TPS to each of the three targets.

Wild assumption I know, but it does seem to be useful for single-target threat and small-time aoe.
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Postby Obrimos » Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:53 pm

Dorvan wrote:Unless 1H weapons start having 400 stamina on them....the spell power gain of a caster weapon will be very significant. 120? Weapons in TBC already have upwards of 250 spellpower, and it's only going up from there.


I have 1100 Stamina right now.

That's almost 400 Spell Power with the new talent.

366 Spell Power, give or take one, to be exact.

That is twice what I have now on my weapon.

Accounting for the amount on Pally tier armor, you only actually loose about 120ish, I'm estimating, in the end. And it ignores the gains in Stamina across our armor to adjust for new tanking mechanics.

We're going to have a lot of Stamina. This will translate into large chunks of Spell Power that we don't have now. That's why I think that Stamina alone will be enough in most instances to give us threat, while a "Warrior" weapon will buff up our big attack spell.

Trash and AOE a caster weapon may probably still be the best option, but our "tanking weapons" are most likely going to be of the Strength/Stam/High DPS variety.
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Postby Dorvan » Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:14 pm

Yes, I understand that....the point is that you're going to have all that stamina regardless of which weapon you choose, so the question becomes: which is more effective, a melee weapon with a few tanking stats, or a spellpower weapon with a crap-ton of additional +dam?

I agree that the intended result is for us to use a melee tank weapon, but it's hard to say whether or not that's actually the best move at this point.
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Postby Obrimos » Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:19 pm

Dorvan wrote:Yes, I understand that....the point is that you're going to have all that stamina regardless of which weapon you choose, so the question becomes: which is more effective, a melee weapon with a few tanking stats, or a spellpower weapon with a crap-ton of additional +dam?

I agree that the intended result is for us to use a melee tank weapon, but it's hard to say whether or not that's actually the best move at this point.


I think that with the amount of Stamina we'll have naturally, the value of the Spell Power will be far less than it is now.

IE, we'll have what we need from Stamina alone, and using Kings will raise our spell power by itself. In addition to that, we'll have a power that derives a lot of threat from Strength, and another that derives a lot of threat from the DPS of the weapon. The value of a warrior-style main hand may outweigh the spell power from caster style weapons.
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Postby snowwight » Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:30 pm

You can never produce too much threat, particularly in a world where salvation is an active ability. I am worried Joe Holy will respec prot, wearing half spell power gear. Do they balance our max threat against him? Won't there be some QQ if paladins wearing mixed gear or even just holy gear with prot talents can far outdo the threat output of the other tanks(at a mitigation cost, but nonetheless)? Will there be enough of a difference to actually make prot gear worth it on low-hitting aoe packs? What about soloing - right now seems like unless you're wearing holy gear, you're going to go oom pretty damn fast.

Anyway, still beta, still time for them to address these issues and see how they play out. But it seems like this implementation is going to be tough for them to balance.
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Postby Obrimos » Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:23 pm

snowwight wrote:You can never produce too much threat, particularly in a world where salvation is an active ability. I am worried Joe Holy will respec prot, wearing half spell power gear. Do they balance our max threat against him? Won't there be some QQ if paladins wearing mixed gear or even just holy gear with prot talents can far outdo the threat output of the other tanks(at a mitigation cost, but nonetheless)? Will there be enough of a difference to actually make prot gear worth it on low-hitting aoe packs? What about soloing - right now seems like unless you're wearing holy gear, you're going to go oom pretty damn fast.

Anyway, still beta, still time for them to address these issues and see how they play out. But it seems like this implementation is going to be tough for them to balance.


The avoidance combined with the prot talents will help mitigate the prohibitive costs of Consecrate.

Holy gear doesn't have a lot of dodge/parry, so it'll be harder to maintain that string of Consecrates.
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