Wrath Protection Paladins made out like THEIVES!

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Scarzi » Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:33 pm

WOTLK aoe tanking nerf in disguise?

Correct me if I am wrong but by the time we get into our new tanking epics at level 80, their will be NO spell power on the items. That’s what I grasp when blizzard says we are using the same gear as warriors and deathknights. IF that is the case then we will have no more spell damage then we have now. AND if our new 51 point is based on weapon damage, is that not encouraging a REAL tanking weapon aswell, for it to throw some nice threat?

I don't have access to answer my own questions, but from the looks of things they nerfed our AoE considering the fact that salvation is gone and damage is going to scale alot higher where our spelldamage will roughly be in the same area until end game content in WOTLK.
Last time I checked, 38% dodge is better then stacking stamina.
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Postby Dorvan » Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:57 pm

Scarzi wrote:WOTLK aoe tanking nerf in disguise?

Correct me if I am wrong but by the time we get into our new tanking epics at level 80, their will be NO spell power on the items. That’s what I grasp when blizzard says we are using the same gear as warriors and deathknights. IF that is the case then we will have no more spell damage then we have now. AND if our new 51 point is based on weapon damage, is that not encouraging a REAL tanking weapon aswell, for it to throw some nice threat?

I don't have access to answer my own questions, but from the looks of things they nerfed our AoE considering the fact that salvation is gone and damage is going to scale alot higher where our spelldamage will roughly be in the same area until end game content in WOTLK.


30% stam -> SD, and you'll still probably want to use a SD weapon for AoE tanking. Not to mention an additional 15% Holy Shield damage, and less importantly a huge buff to Holy Wrath. I'd say calling "nerf" is more than a little premature at this point.
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:36 pm

Soltyr wrote:I hope for a BoSanc changes really (Bubble is a nice OT tool now).
I can't believe WotlK will ship that same blessing again as 21 talent point.


As long as I don't have to spend a talent point on that retarded thing, it's a success imo.
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Postby Jtree » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:40 pm

Dorvan wrote:
Scarzi wrote:WOTLK aoe tanking nerf in disguise?

Correct me if I am wrong but by the time we get into our new tanking epics at level 80, their will be NO spell power on the items. That’s what I grasp when blizzard says we are using the same gear as warriors and deathknights. IF that is the case then we will have no more spell damage then we have now. AND if our new 51 point is based on weapon damage, is that not encouraging a REAL tanking weapon aswell, for it to throw some nice threat?

I don't have access to answer my own questions, but from the looks of things they nerfed our AoE considering the fact that salvation is gone and damage is going to scale alot higher where our spelldamage will roughly be in the same area until end game content in WOTLK.


30% stam -> SD, and you'll still probably want to use a SD weapon for AoE tanking. Not to mention an additional 15% Holy Shield damage, and less importantly a huge buff to Holy Wrath. I'd say calling "nerf" is more than a little premature at this point.


Yeah, I'm guessing that we're going to need one of each weapon type, tank and caster, for situational use in Wrath endgame. AoE tanking where we need Consecration, put on the caster weapon. Tank weapon for bosses.

With the eight second holy shield cooldown and two new threat moves, I can envision boss tanking where we will not use consecration any more.
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Postby Lore » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:43 pm

A warlock-style weapon (with high stam, spellpower, and maybe some crit/hit/haste) seems optimal considering it will be useful as a healing weapon as well.
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Postby Alorianna » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:45 pm

What if they give spell damage weapons regular base damage? Then we'd only need one weapon, minus any mitigation stats found on tanking weapons.
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Postby randomjibberish » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:58 pm

I wanna see some of the epic fist fights resulting in every healer (minus paladins) and every caster DPSer rolling on the first lvl 80 epic spell power dagger that drops in a 25 man raid.

While I sit back and drink lemonade.

Then prepare for the fight I'm going to have when that first spell power mace drops.

Maybe I'll go steal a caster sword. Mages and warlocks don't heal me.
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Postby Galiant » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:44 am

I'm going to be a bit of a jerk here and say that if beta-Ramparts was when you first tanked...BOY should you have tried tanking Strat and Scholo at 60 without a taunt =) Those were the days!

The best part was showing disbelievers how it's really done. Once I even met a Warrior with a Paladin alt that actually had Thunderfury and tanked in MC. I found that really impressive at the time.

And man, I farmed those dwarves into oblivion for my Force of Will trinket and Naglering.

Anyways, well said. I am liking the new changes so far, at least in theory.
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Postby Obrimos » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:54 am

randomjibberish wrote:I wanna see some of the epic fist fights resulting in every healer (minus paladins) and every caster DPSer rolling on the first lvl 80 epic spell power dagger that drops in a 25 man raid.

While I sit back and drink lemonade.

Then prepare for the fight I'm going to have when that first spell power mace drops.

Maybe I'll go steal a caster sword. Mages and warlocks don't heal me.


We may not use spellpower weapons any more.

We may be using the same weapons as Warriors.
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Postby Morendin » Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:14 am

Obrimos wrote:
randomjibberish wrote:I wanna see some of the epic fist fights resulting in every healer (minus paladins) and every caster DPSer rolling on the first lvl 80 epic spell power dagger that drops in a 25 man raid.

While I sit back and drink lemonade.

Then prepare for the fight I'm going to have when that first spell power mace drops.

Maybe I'll go steal a caster sword. Mages and warlocks don't heal me.


We may not use spellpower weapons any more.

We may be using the same weapons as Warriors.


not unless there's a BIG threat multiplier on Hammer of the Righteous we won't. running the math for two equal iLVL weapons gives a 50%+ advantage on total threat to the spell damage one.
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Postby Obrimos » Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:15 am

Morendin wrote:
Obrimos wrote:
randomjibberish wrote:I wanna see some of the epic fist fights resulting in every healer (minus paladins) and every caster DPSer rolling on the first lvl 80 epic spell power dagger that drops in a 25 man raid.

While I sit back and drink lemonade.

Then prepare for the fight I'm going to have when that first spell power mace drops.

Maybe I'll go steal a caster sword. Mages and warlocks don't heal me.


We may not use spellpower weapons any more.

We may be using the same weapons as Warriors.


not unless there's a BIG threat multiplier on Hammer of the Righteous we won't. running the math for two equal iLVL weapons gives a 50%+ advantage on total threat to the spell damage one.


This is also dependent on how much stamina is on a "warrior weapon".

Keep in mind it also scales with AP, and we'll probably be ending up with a lot more Strength than we used to, and that's 2.42 AP per point for us (thanks to Kings).
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Postby Karock » Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:25 am

his is also dependent on how much stamina is on a "warrior weapon".

Keep in mind it also scales with AP, and we'll probably be ending up with a lot more Strength than we used to, and that's 2.42 AP per point for us (thanks to Kings).


Agreed we might end up finding a high dps high strength weapon to be better for, at the very least, single target threat come WotlK. Especially if they are really significantly changing strength to block value (we get two points of damage per block value with a threat modifier on our new shield slam - if the 2 = 1 number i've heard thrown around here is right that's 1=1 damage for strength on our shield slam).
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Postby aranil » Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:54 am

I'm not sure if this true, but I don't think I've ever been critted while I've managed to get a block in, so while I'm not too happy about the changes to antipation, I think, if they don't change HS, while it's going to hurt as all hell, we do have a small fall back....although, I'm not sure. I have about 515-520 defense now, but I also know that 20 point lost is also going to affect our avoidance, which if I remember is

1 point of defense=0.16 avoidance
0.16x20= 3.2 over all avoidance
(Not sure on my math, isn't 1 defense=0.04 Miss, parry, dodge, and block?)

So, we gain 1.8% avoidance, so it's actually better, right?
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Postby Obrimos » Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:00 am

aranil wrote:I'm not sure if this true, but I don't think I've ever been critted while I've managed to get a block in


This is true; it's impossible to Crit a Blocked attack.

This is part of the key of being Uncrushable, as Crits come before Crushes.
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Postby Karock » Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:04 am

aranil wrote:I'm not sure if this true, but I don't think I've ever been critted while I've managed to get a block in, so while I'm not too happy about the changes to antipation, I think, if they don't change HS, while it's going to hurt as all hell, we do have a small fall back....although, I'm not sure. I have about 515-520 defense now, but I also know that 20 point lost is also going to affect our avoidance, which if I remember is

1 point of defense=0.16 avoidance
0.16x20= 3.2 over all avoidance
(Not sure on my math, isn't 1 defense=0.04 Miss, parry, dodge, and block?)

So, we gain 1.8% avoidance, so it's actually better, right?


While you can't be crit by things that miss you, or that you dodge, parry or block, there are a multitude of unblockable special attacks and other circumstances that would allow you to be crit without the proper defense cap.

That said I doubt Blizzard will make reaching the defense cap not feasible for us in WotlK with or without our talent.
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