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OTing Gruul possible?

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OTing Gruul possible?

Postby Daromire » Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:09 pm

exactly that, i was at 15.5k hp and around 260 spell dmg... no warrior shout or blood pact, had a shadow priest in my group feeding me mana but it was still very intense. had misdirect and everything, next try we went to a warrior OT and killed him.

btw i don't mind healing but it bugs me that i can't OT gruul, are the hateful strikes enough to keep our mana going with Judging Seal of the crusader and using SoV, concecrate, and avenger's shield when its up? i used combat mana pots whenever it was they were up but one of our top warlocks was riding my ass or passing me and having to soul shatter.

my tps should be fine when i have the mana supply cause i can single target over 700 tps usually on any boss/trash in kara without using undead abilities.
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Postby Candiru » Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:43 am

When I OT gruul I often end up stealing agro from the MT halfway through the fight if I don't watch my agro.

I use crystalforged blade with +40spell damage enchant, flask of unstable sorceror libram of zeal, judgement of the crusader and seal of righteousness.

Then spam Avenger's shield every time it is up as well as max rank consecration. Use mana pots as soon as you can and every time the cooldown is up until 10 growths, then use ironshield pots to stay alive.

Don't forget to use avenging wrath every time you can as long as the groundslam is 20seconds away or more.

I didn't find my judgement ever dropped off, but I don't know how seal of vengence works as I am horde, might find righeousness is better with all the groundslams.

Using this I was second on the agro metre the whole fight (and part way through gruul started attacking me instead! had to swtich librams fast)

You don't need to stay ahead of the warlocks though (although you should be able to) since hurtfull strikes only hit the second highest in melee range.
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Postby Kyroro » Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:58 am

I mainly OT Gruul because we're still tweaking him and a warrior has the oh-shit buttons that keep the tank alive. When our raid gets more familiar with the fight I'll probably switch myself to be MT because I'm actually best geared.

I use Judgement of the Crusader and Seal of Vengeance on Gruul and max. rank consecrates. Hit avenging wrath the moment the MT gets him in position and watch your threat fly - but be careful not to overtake the MT (this has happened to me more than once). It's a lot of threat but you run out of mana. You will be chugging super mana pots (about 2-3 per attempt) until 10 grows when you start taking the Ironshields to mitigate the hurtful strike and cave-ins. Sometimes SoV does fall off because of the ground slams, but a consecrate will tide you over until you get 5 stackings on him again.

In fact you don't want to use too much spell damage, and you should be in your highest HP gear (note, not avoidance) because past 10 grows those Hurtful Strikes are going to one shot you. I started thinking out I needed to be in max. threat gear but found out I could hold 2nd aggro just fine with just 150+ spell damage (T4 helm and shoulders really help). I ended up throwing every piece of HP gear on, ignoring avoidance and spell damage and have 13.3k unbuffed. Raid buffed & flasked I'm at 18.2k health with a commanding shout, and sometimes I still die to the HS at 14+ grows.

If you got a Sun Eater, past 10 grows I swap this weapon on. Extra avoidance here does make a difference. Every HS that is avoided is good. If you got the Morose trinket, use it at this point so that you don't take as much damage.
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Postby Maruko_ » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:49 am

A paladin can definitely be the HS tank... I do it weekly ;)

I'd be a little worried with only 15.5k health though. I'd highly suggest any HS tank be over 17.5k buffed, 18k+ preferable. After 10-12 growths the HS starts to hit really hard. Once we let him get to 16 growths just before he died and the HS hit for 17.3k+... all I have to say is ow :P

Our tank group is usually:
Warrior MT (commanding shout)
Myself OT (devo aura)
Resto Druid (tree aura)
Resto Shaman (totems!)
Lock (imp buff)

For gear I use my max stamina set, and swap my gloves so I get 2 piece justicar bonus. For extra threat I use an unstable flask of the sorcerer and a wizard oil.

Anyway, I run in with the MT, JoR... then once we get to a stable spot I Avenging Wrath, Avenging Shield, and drop a max rank consecrate. It really helps to have a second hunter misdirect you as well once the MT has a bunch of threat. I judge wisdom, use SoR/JoR and use max rank consecrates throughout the fight. Pop Avenging Wrath whenever it comes up again. That seems to keep me at #2 threat throughout the fight :)

Between HS damage + heals and wisdom, mana isn't usually an issue either, though sometimes I need a mana pot at the beginning when the HS aren't hitting very hard yet.
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Postby Daromire » Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:21 am

thanks so much for the info guys, i may give this a try again today since it is Tuesday and its reset today. Still trying to get my T4 shoulders, and seems i wasn't thinking of using the right flask heh. Also didn't think about using a diff libram and i was in full avoidance gear not full stam and not in a tank group for imp buff or shout so that will help my hp a TON!

Thanks again guys, also, i don't think it can but not sure so i will ask. Can the hurtful strike crush you? I looked through the combat log and never saw it but thought i might have just been getting lucky.. I can be uncrushable with gear changes but wasn't when i OTed him for more avoidance/threat ect...

Also what kind of tps do you guys run when your OTing gruul?
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:32 am

Daromire wrote:thanks so much for the info guys, i may give this a try again today since it is Tuesday and its reset today. Still trying to get my T4 shoulders, and seems i wasn't thinking of using the right flask heh. Also didn't think about using a diff libram and i was in full avoidance gear not full stam and not in a tank group for imp buff or shout so that will help my hp a TON!

Thanks again guys, also, i don't think it can but not sure so i will ask. Can the hurtful strike crush you? I looked through the combat log and never saw it but thought i might have just been getting lucky.. I can be uncrushable with gear changes but wasn't when i OTed him for more avoidance/threat ect...

Also what kind of tps do you guys run when your OTing gruul?


No, it can not crit or crush you, so you don't have to be uncrushable. I wear max threat/HP gear. I do find I have to drink mana pots to stay at number 2 on threat, but it's definitely doable.
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Postby Aleriya » Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:00 pm

It depends on your group. My group typically kills Gruul around grow 16-18 and it's generally not possible for a paladin or warrior to OT him at that point. Thankfully we've got an uber bear druid with massive hp who can survive those hits for 20k.

I can survive as OT through grow 14 or so. Once our dps gets better I should be able to OT a kill just fine.
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Postby Diocaska » Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:53 am

I just OT'ed Gruul last night. Oh.... My.....!


Went in with 15.1k Hp, and 15.1k armor.

I judged Seal of The Crusader, rank 3 concecrates, Seal of Vengence, and Avengers Shield every time I possibly could.

Used rank 5 concecration after about growth 8, used 2 mana pots, until growth 10, where I went for ironshield.

First time, we had a bad shatter, believe it was little after a silence, and I got took out.

Second time, me and the MT both got shot down in quick succession.

Third try, was beautiful. I died 10 seconds before Gruul, but fact is, he went down.

Got to somewhere like 13/14 maybe 15 Growths. I had a situation at one point where I had to stop pumping out my threat, but in the end, I was about 80-85% the MT's threat. Didn't see a melee near us ^_^
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Postby enbee » Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:10 am

Paladins have the worst offtanking threat output of any of the 3 tanking classes, such a big chunk of our threat comes from blocking incoming damage with holy shield, it's doable though, just very mana intensive and expensive (pots!)
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Postby Daeren » Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:52 pm

enbee wrote:Paladins have the worst offtanking threat output of any of the 3 tanking classes, such a big chunk of our threat comes from blocking incoming damage with holy shield, it's doable though, just very mana intensive and expensive (pots!)

We did a weird twist with having two shadow priests in MT group (mainly to cover MT healign for silences), but that also affected me, and gave me infinite mana to build all the threat i ever wanted.
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Postby Doriangray » Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:04 pm

enbee wrote:it's doable though, just very mana intensive and expensive (pots!)

Well, it's better for Gruul, because you can use the Ogre Brew pots, and I'm actually happy every time I use one because I got rid of some of these shards again that keep piling up.
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Postby Lonso » Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:31 pm

Hi all. Been lurking here for a while leeching info but too lazy to sign up. This is an awesome community. Lately I find myself wanting to add my two cents so here I am.

In general, it's my opinion that our reliance on reflective damage is over-estimated both by us and non-pallies. As long as we have mana we can push threat out pretty well. For instance, here are my out-going damage stats from our Void Reaver kill the other day:

Consecration 24%
Holy Vengeance 23%
Judgement of Vengeance 19%
Melee 16%
Holy Shield 9%
Hammer of Wrath 1%
Grtr BoSanc 1%
Reflect (aka Thorns) 1%

I'm in 4/5 Tier 4 with the Lower City Gavel. For this fight I had roughly 430ish spell damage. I body pulled him (aggro range too wide for AS) and judged SoR and the warriors immediately got misdirects which took aggro right away. I judged Imp SotC and popped AW and then SoV and Consecration. In less than a minute I had him back. I didn't use Avenger's Shield at all that fight.

Void Reaver was on me approximately 60% of the fight. It was me and two warriors tanking, with each of them getting a misdirect from a hunter every time it was up. After several knock-backs VR turned to the warrior closest on threat. I was below both warriors. By the time that warrior lost it I was back above the second warrior and got another turn.

Seals, judgements and Consecration are a huge part of our threat and, from my experience, usually enough to keep up with a warrior having equivalent gear.
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