Consecration Mana Cost to Dmg... WOTLK

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Postby Baelor » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:48 am

Dorvan wrote:
Kelaan wrote:I think it involves Judgment of Wisdom being bugged and a bag full of fel mana pots


fix'd

Re-fix't
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Postby Lore » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:49 am

Nottebella wrote:With increased damage, warriors will see increased rage generation. As a corollary, we may see an increase to Spiritual Attunement (which does have ranks remember), maybe even on the order of double to 20%. That would certainly balance out the increase in mana cost.


I was thinking about this the other day as well, especially if they're also removing all intellect from our tanking gear. I don't think we'd quite see 20%, but even the 10% increase (ie: 11%) from 2-piece T6 is noticeable.

It's also worth mentioning that, although Warrior rage generation takes level into account for incoming damage (otherwise level 1's would generate no rage at all from getting hit), SA does not.
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Postby moduspwnens » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:51 am

I'm still hoping they figure out a way to make it so we as tanks don't have to down-gear to tank easier content effectively.
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Postby Dorvan » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:59 am

moduspwnens wrote:I'm still hoping they figure out a way to make it so we as tanks don't have to down-gear to tank easier content effectively.


I don't see that changing as long as threat generation is closely tied to damage received. Of course, they could break that dependency, but it'd involve some significant mechanics changes, and would especially change the nature of OT tanking.
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Postby Zx » Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:00 am

moduspwnens wrote:I'm still hoping they figure out a way to make it so we as tanks don't have to down-gear to tank easier content effectively.


I do not think that this will ever happen because as you outgear an encounter by more and more the damage that you either avoid completely or mitigate will be much higher with an increased gear tier. So tanking curator while in T6 gear would probably hose your mana regen because the incoming damage would be much lower and not using SA properly.
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Postby moduspwnens » Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:00 am

Dorvan wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:I'm still hoping they figure out a way to make it so we as tanks don't have to down-gear to tank easier content effectively.


I don't see that changing as long as threat generation is closely tied to damage received. Of course, they could break that dependency, but it'd involve some significant mechanics changes, and would especially change the nature of OT tanking.


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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:02 am

Dorvan wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:If it's not an AoE encounter we are rarely the best or even second best tank. I'm not sure what there is to nerf. Hopefully they'll just buff some of the other classes AoE tanking abilities and then buff our single target tanking ability.


Having seen all the content you've seen I still disagree with this assessment, but I'm really not up for going into that whole bit again.


Our previous discussion was about which boss encounters it's good to have a pally tanking on at all. I'm talking about actually maintanking the boss here (in response to "why buff our single target tanking"), I don't think it's all that debatable that we are rarely the best choice.
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Postby Dorvan » Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:05 am

Fridmarr wrote:Our previous discussion was about which boss encounters it's good to have a pally tanking on at all. I'm talking about actually maintanking the boss here (in response to "why buff our single target tanking"), I don't think it's all that debatable that we are rarely the best choice.


I'd agree that we're rarely the stand alone best choice, but that we're often the "splitting hairs to find differences" equal choice, and rarely the dead last choice.

In the bigger picture, I think our single target tanking could use buffs in a couple places. I just disagree with the "Pallys are rock-bottom MTs" assessment.
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Postby moduspwnens » Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:06 am

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Postby Spectrum » Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:21 am

moduspwnens wrote:I'm still hoping they figure out a way to make it so we as tanks don't have to down-gear to tank easier content effectively.


I'd love to see something related to blocks, but that would make us way too good with multiple mobs. I think a reason they have to change SA is because of the way mana pools scale with level vs. the way damage scales with level. Heck, make SOMETHING scale with block value!

You guys always talk about raiding but you have to remember that these changes need to be viable for non-raiding 5-man tanks, who will probably never have the infinite mana pool that raid-tanking gives you.
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Postby Wyleai » Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:01 pm

Lore wrote:Should be noted that every mana-using class is getting the same thing, they just increased mana costs across the board.


Yes but... what about how this makes us compare to the non-mana using classes? Will it make us weaker tanks in comparison to warriors and bears?
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Postby Dorvan » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:20 pm

Wyleai wrote:
Lore wrote:Should be noted that every mana-using class is getting the same thing, they just increased mana costs across the board.


Yes but... what about how this makes us compare to the non-mana using classes? Will it make us weaker tanks in comparison to warriors and bears?


No....double the mana cost and double the damage intake and what do you have? The same mana balance we have now.
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Postby hopps » Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:50 pm

No....double the mana cost and double the damage intake and what do you have? The same mana balance we have now.


and more tps, won't have to spam righteous fury as much maybe!
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Postby Karock » Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:15 am

Arcand wrote:
Spectrum wrote:...I find that we go OOM quickly and are already having to downrank consc a lot. A worse coefficient would make tanking in small group s much more painful.


Optimistically (who are you and what have you done with Arcand):
They're giving the other tanks better group-tanking tools,
they're making our group-tanking a smidge weaker by borking our mana efficiency,
and we're getting some single-target goodies to compensate.

Cynically (ah, there he is):
They're weakening us at our niche ability and the compensation will be negligible or ill-conceived.


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Postby Morendin » Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:13 pm

Dorvan wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Our previous discussion was about which boss encounters it's good to have a pally tanking on at all. I'm talking about actually maintanking the boss here (in response to "why buff our single target tanking"), I don't think it's all that debatable that we are rarely the best choice.


I'd agree that we're rarely the stand alone best choice, but that we're often the "splitting hairs to find differences" equal choice, and rarely the dead last choice.

In the bigger picture, I think our single target tanking could use buffs in a couple places. I just disagree with the "Pallys are rock-bottom MTs" assessment.

When I was in T5 and early T6, I agreed that we were almost never the first choice as maintanks...in T4, it was even worse, especially before 2.3
Now I'm in sunwell, and in sunwell, I agree with Dorvan.

Kalecgos is warrior/bear advantaged, but as long as you have decent gear, the difference between classes is almost never the difference between living and dying...not even shield wall will save your ass when your healers botch their portals and you're suddenly tanking the demon all by your self...

Brutallis is, in my opinion, a masterpiece of tank balance.
it MATTERS which tanks you have on him, but no one class is just better:
Bearplate gives much lower total damage, and barkskin -> taunt makes transitions much less dangerous
Shield Wall gives you a few more precious seconds into the enrage, and Last Stand lets you cover one more stomp.
last but not least, we bring HOLY SHIT THREAT to the party, when I open with AW, my threat doesn't drop under 2k until it's gone, and it hits 3k pretty often...we blow the first heroism as soon as Cathmor has Vengence stacked, and in general go balls to the wall as soon as he hits melee range of me...and I still hand my Warrior partner a 20k+ threat lead.

with that setup, the raid leader will need to think about what he wants most from those two tanks...
DPS threat capped? by god, open with a paladin, they'll never be capped again.
tanks dying on taunt? 1 or both bears is best
tanks dying on stomp? find out whether, for your strat, bearplate or 1/2 more cooldowns is going to fix it
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