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Normal to Heroic trouble: had a rude awakening.

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Normal to Heroic trouble: had a rude awakening.

Postby Grokii » Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:58 am

I ding'd 70 two weeks ago. I've been trying to collect gear on my own in pickup groups. I got up to 490+ defense and making steady progress to uncrushable.

So, there was some talk about running heroic Underbog. I volunteered to tank, but let 'em know this would be my first try at a heroic. We zone in and I do ok for the first two pulls. We actually realize that the healer isn't there yet. I start to feel confident.

Then we start to have problems. The CC isn't working well, I try to taunt them back but I don't attack them because I don't want to break CC. So I'm loosing aggro, but DPS is still on the main target, and I start loosing it. The healer starts healing the better geared DPS warrior that is getting aggro. Two wipes later, the group decides if we're having this much trouble we won't be able to take the bosses.

I abhor CC, but realize it will be necessary in heroics until my gear gets better. We had two hunters, and they were doing an alright job with the initial frost trap, but it was breaking down fast. I think the healer had more confidence in the warrior then me after the first wipe, so I wasn't getting heals like I should.

I know getting my CoT rep up so I can get the upgrade to legs, helm enchant, and a real spell damage weapon will be a great benefit. I was still getting hit for 2500 by the trash, non-crits and I assume non-crushing blows. That seems kinda high to me. When I get hit for 2500 my blocking 101 of that seems trivial. Is this to be expected when doing heroics or was I getting unlucky? If they were hitting that hard, how could I tank the first two singles without the healer being there?

Also, I was doing normal instances I was used to just grabbing the pack and running seal/judgment of wisdom with holy shield and max rank consecration spam for most of the fight. With the heals and mana back from seal/judge wisdom I ended most 70-90% mana. Since I need to use CC I can't do that, but I don't want to drink after every pull. How can I keep pumping out the threat without burning my mana?

Here is my armory link: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... o&n=Grokii

I have 12 Stars of Elune, but trying to find someone to cut them into Solid Stars. I am an enchanter and trying to farm all the tanking enchants I'm going to be using. I know, I know, I should just suck it up and have someone else enchant my gear. The enchanters I know don't have the recipes I need and I still owe a friend 2k gold for loan he floated me for my epic flyer. I almost have that paid back, then I'll be able to pay another enchanter to use my mats for enchanting my gear.

So, given all that... any advice for cracking into heroics?
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:18 am

[item=27887]Platinum Shield of the Valorous[/item] drops in regular Shadow Labyrinth.
[item=32660]Crystalforged Sword[/item] can be camped on the AH, but you should be able to handle regular Durnholde enough to hit Revered for [item=29185]Continuum Blade[/item].
[item=23518]Felsteel Leggings[/item] can be bought for cheap from leveling blacksmiths.
[item=31460]Sha'tari Vindicator's Waistguard[/item] is a quest reward from getting the Arcatraz key. Requires some solo work and then regular Mechanar and Botanica.
[item=28167]Sha'tar Wrought Armguards[/item] are good, and so are [item=23538]Bracers of the Green Fortress[/item], if you have some extra money.
[item=31858]Darkmoon Card: Vengeance[/item] is a good trinket. Paladins have very low health comparatively at your gear level, so two stamina trinkets isn't a bad thing.
[item=28262]Jade-Skull Breastplate[/item] wouldn't be bad to pick up from the Nethermancer in Mechanar.
[item=31078]Protector's Mark of the Redemption[/item] is a very well-itemized quest reward tanking ring.
[item=27917]Libram of Eternal Rest[/item] is available in Sethekk Halls from the first boss.

Then, gem and enchant everything.
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Postby Shoju » Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:24 am

OK. I'm looking at your gear, and the following is what I would "build" too, as you progress towards Kara. If you follow the link in my sig, and look at my paladin, you will see that I'm wearing most of what I'm recommending. I tank Kara from time to time, do heroics, and have no problem. I logged in my 5 man gear, and since you are talking about heroics, this guide is meant to get you ready for heroics.

1.) Do the questline in Blades edge to get the natasha neck. IMO, it's superior pre kara to the neck you are using. ESPECIALLY in Heroics. NOTHING in a heroic crushes. You need 490d, and armor and HP. Avoidance is nice, but you don't have to worry about the crush. This neck will give you 10 more Sta

2.) Gem those shoulders with stars if elune. You dont care about the socket bonus. run Botanica to get the bold shoulders. They are pimps for avoidance, or try to get the righteous ones, I have had 1 total righteousness drop tho.

3.) Enchant your cloak. 120 armor is nice enchant for heroics. dodge will serve for the uncrush tho.

4.) Enchant your chest with either 15 defense or 150 health. 15 defense will give you the same Sta and Def rating as the aldor chest piece. this piece has hit, the aldor piece has dodge. I carry both with me.

5.) get the Sha'tari Bracers from the Soul Devices quest in Shadow Labs NORMAL. they are GREAT until you can afford to get Bracers of the Green Fortress, or the Tankadin Bracers out of Heroic Arc.

6.) Gem Your Gloves for stamina and put 240 armor on them. This will work for Heroics. Get another pair and gem and enchant them for uncrush.

7.) The Belt is good, but get your Arcatraz Key questline done. That belt is SICK for you. it's 3% avoidance and good stamina. IF you are aldor, the lightwarden's girdle from the socrethar line is good as well.

8.) Get Felsteel Leggings, Gem them for stamina, toss a clefthoof kit on them. They are great 5 man pants, and then make your timewarden's pants your raiding legs with uncrush stuff.

9.) Enchant your boots. Since you are 48/13, get 12 arcane dust and get 12 stamina on them. You could also get them boots out of ShadowLabs (Shat'ari Wrought Greaves). They are a quest reward, have two sockets that you can cram with 12 stam gems. Get them enchanted with 12 stam, and you have good boots that still give you 1% avoidance.

10) Get the Wind Trader's Band from the quest in netherstorm. You have to go to a cave under Manaforge Ara and kill a demon. It's green, but it's AMAZING. A Black Pearl WOuld be a good pickup too. It's got 33 stamina and spell damage. Once you are over 490, it's a great threat ring.

11.) get Dabiri's Enigma until you get the adamantine Figurine. THe Enigma is from a 3 quest questline in netherstorm. I SOLOD the 72 elite with a stack of mana pots and Shadow Resistance Aura (on a PVP server)

12.) get rep with SSO to get the Sunward Crest. It's a GREAT 5 man shield, and good to get uncrushable. The Dawnforge defender is better once you are uncrush tho.

13.) If you can't get a Crystalforged blade, you can get a Seeker's Gavel at revered with the SSO. toss 40 spell damage on it, or wait till you have a crystalforged and enchant that. the Continuum Blade is good, and acceptable, the crystalforged sword is the best for pala tanks IMO.


THe Lichen guard is a good shield, dont sell it. You will want it to do dailies with. I have the same setup in my daily gear, and I love it. It's almost like duel wielding.
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Postby jnames » Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:26 am

The 2nd/3rd (depending on if you pull the rays together) is the hardest pull in UB for a new tank in my opinion. On my first couple of goes at UB we wiped there 2 or 3 times every run, and then went through the rest of the instance without a problem. I recommend bringing a warlock and banishing on so you don't have to worry about breaking the cc. The only other really hard pull in there IMO is the 2 bog giants right before the first boss, but if you have a warrior, you can get him to intervene one of them as often as possible to slow the damage. you should at least get your rep rewards/boe blues/quest rewards before doing heroics though.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:29 am

UB was my first heroic, I had about 12k hp with kings.

Things to consider:
1) Mobs in heroics hit hard. Expect low hits to be in the higher ends of 1 and 2k each
2) Many many mobs have special gimmicks. The rays in UB have a special attack that hit for over 5k if they're behind you, like a rogue's backstab.
3) Make sure your consecration isn't breaking any cc that you are using.
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Postby Grokii » Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:52 am

Thanks for all the help. I posted this knowing I still had a lot of work. I have most of the solo stuff done, just need to get my 'crew(tm)' setup and start hitting the instances I need. Silly holidays means I've been PUGing a lot the last week.

I had always heard, get 490 defense and you're good to go with heroics. So I didn't understand why I was getting hurt so bad. I knew it would be tougher then when I flesh out the rest of my gear, but I thought it was worth a shot. Good to know some people say those first pulls are the hardest of UB, so I'm not a complete moron. : )

I was thinking, shoot, if this is what its like to start, we're going to get rocked on the rest of the instance.
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Heroic Helpers

Postby StopPokingMe » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:13 am

By no means am I a pro but I am working towards heroics as well. A couple of upgrades that may help ya. The belt you have is awesome but you need more spell damage, try having a BS make you a belt of the guardian. BotG is a T5 caliber belt. For trinkets, you may want to get Dabiri's Enigma from professor Dabiri in Netherstorm. Be careful when running that questline because the shadow elementals with big pink things on em can put up a holy shield so before you pull one, you might want to use that goblin rocket launcher so they throw up a fire shield instead of a holy shield. Also when you run Black Morass you have a couple of drops they may work out in your favor. D3 Legs drop from dragon boss. you get Andormu's Tear Ring(quest reward for blast more ass I mean black morass) for avoidance, Coninuum Blade, head enchant, and the timewarden's legs. All in all that should help you tank well. This weekend I upgraded my continuum blade to S2 Mace. S2 Mace has 225 Dpell Damage and some resilience which helps to build on uncrittable. The mace requires 25,200 Honor and 20 Eye of the Storm Marks.
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Postby Shoju » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:27 am

DO NOT WEAR ANDORMU'S TEAR IN A HEROIC

that's bad. mmmkay?

that ring is GREAT for uncrushable, and NOTHING else. Since nothing in a heroic crushes, once you have 490 defense a green heavy adamantite ring with 42 stamina is a BETTER OPTION. AN even better option is the black pearl
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Postby Grokii » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:40 am

Should I continue to stack defense past 490? I was thinking it gives me more avoidance, which is never bad. I was planning on getting enchants focusing on +def over +sta.

At this point I'm only looking to do heroics. If I start raid tanking it will be the 10-mans in the expansion and I'm sure a lot will change between then and now.

So, what I'm hearing is: get 485 or 490 defense. After that stamina is more important then avoidance for heroics. Other then that, I just need a real spell damage weapon so threat won't be a problem.
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:44 am

Grokii wrote:Should I continue to stack defense past 490? I was thinking it gives me more avoidance, which is never bad. I was planning on getting enchants focusing on +def over +sta.

At this point I'm only looking to do heroics. If I start raid tanking it will be the 10-mans in the expansion and I'm sure a lot will change between then and now.

So, what I'm hearing is: get 485 or 490 defense. After that stamina is more important then avoidance for heroics. Other then that, I just need a real spell damage weapon so threat won't be a problem.


Defense past 490 is fine, but really until T6 gear level, you're going to be the lowest HP tank, and HP is the main way tanks are judged (at least among healers, given no significant avoidance difference). You should do the obvious things (like pick up 15 Defense to chest instead of 150 HP), but imo, for the most part hit uncrittable and stack stamina.
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Postby Marwan » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:45 am

Grokii wrote:Should I continue to stack defense past 490? I was thinking it gives me more avoidance, which is never bad. I was planning on getting enchants focusing on +def over +sta.


You'll get some varing opinions on this, but it seems like the most tend to learn towards ... get to 490* defense and then stack Stam.

You'll want to enchant for defense(if you need it) and gem for stamina.

*485 for Heroics
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Re: Normal to Heroic trouble: had a rude awakening.

Postby MichaelBerea » Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:10 pm

Grokii wrote:We had two hunters, and they were doing an alright job with the initial frost trap, but it was breaking down fast.

I think the healer had more confidence in the warrior then me after the first wipe, so I wasn't getting heals like I should.

Also, I was doing normal instances I was used to just grabbing the pack and running seal/judgment of wisdom with holy shield and max rank consecration spam for most of the fight. With the heals and mana back from seal/judge wisdom I ended most 70-90% mana. Since I need to use CC I can't do that, but I don't want to drink after every pull. How can I keep pumping out the threat without burning my mana?


I see a few things in your original post.

2 hunters = 1 cc. The frost trap cooldown is greater than its duration and most PUG hunters will not solo-cc a mob. (Though it is possible with the right spec/skills)

If the healer is intentionally keeping a dps’er alive while you die you cannot complete the instance. It does not matter what class the dps’er is, only his designated role. When it happens, talk to the healer in private tells; if it happens again, either boot the healer or quit the group.

At your level your threat deteremines how much damage the dps can do because they are using superior pvp gear. The fastest approach is to Seal/Judge Righteousness, downrank Consecration (rank 4 is popular) and drink between pulls. On bosses, keep up 5 stacks of Seal of Vengeance and use SoR otherwise.

Of course, as others have said soloable gear improvements will help you a lot.
The biggest improvements I see are quest gear and grinding out the S2 pvp mace (Merciless Gladiator's Gavel ~25k honor) & the SSO shield (Sunward Crest Exalted Shattered Sun Offensive). Quests, battlegrounds and SSO dailies will be MUCH easier if you spec Retribution for 2-3 weeks. This will also get you the pile of gold you will need.
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Postby Barathorn » Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:58 am

Grokii wrote:After that stamina is more important then avoidance for heroics.


I would really dispute that, you can have all the stamina in the world, it wont help you or your healer if you have no avoidance. While there comes a point when stacking stamina becomes a good thing for heroics, this generally isn't until you have a minimum of 40-50% dodge/parry/miss combined. I think your far better off being balanced than stacking stam for heroics in my opinion until you can reach that level of avoidance. Do NOT underestimate the importance of armor in heroics, if your a little squishy [12k ish health] then armor will make a big difference to your incoming damage.

Grokii wrote:Other then that, I just need a real spell damage weapon so threat won't be a problem.


Yeah you really need to grind to revered with Keepers of Time for the 3 basic things [Glyph/Sword/Leggings] and also grind like a madman when you get chance for your S2 mace in the battlegrounds.

It is hard stepping up to heroics, its a lot easier to get gear from Karazhan and then go to heroics than it is to get gear from heroics and then go to Karazhan thesedays. If you follow the gearing up selections above you will get there, just dig deep and believe in yourself.

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Postby caboom » Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:07 am

Barathorn wrote:If you follow the gearing up selections above you will get there, just dig deep and believe in yourself.

Barathorn.


pretty much the most imporant thing, i used to believe i couldn't do it because of the gear and blamed myself, but after i learnt the pulls in most heroics the said heroics became trivial, also i folowed the CC rule(and no i'm not talking about Constant Consecration xD) and it was too easy to be true.(running mgt hc with a mage rogue and a lock, makes it easier that most other heroix).
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Postby Grokii » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:11 am

Well, got my CoT rep and got some Solid Stars in my gear.

I'm at 11.4k hps and 11.6k ac unbuffed
504 defense with ~44% avoidance (17% dodge, 17% parry, and 10% miss)
15% block, so I'm still ~11% shy of uncrushable (but nothing crushes in heroics so no big deal)

I still need to finish my arc key for the belt and I'm working on the mats for the bracers of the green fortress for my wrists.

So I think I'm about ready to give it another try. I have two IRL friends, they both play mages. They also ding'd 70 recently. They're gear is bad and neither is a tailor. All the gear suggestion threads I've found for them suggest getting tailoring to 375 and farming mats for the BoP epics.

They're spot on with the CC when we needed it leveling up and I'd rather run my first heroics with them. But, they're damage is craptacular. Especially boss fights because they can't find much/any spell hit gear.

Anyone know of a good gear list for a mage that doesn't involve tailoring? Any further suggestions for me breaking into heroics?
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