Advice on the two obnoxious worms...

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Advice on the two obnoxious worms...

Postby Talmus » Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:23 am

Until recently our guild two-tanked Kara...me and a warrior tank. The warrior tank flaked out and quit the guild though so now I'm left to single tank it. I'm more than comfortable with this setup and wish they'd let me cut loose and do all the pulls just pulling everything but that's a story for another time...

My question here is about those two obnoxious worms...the ones that are immune to magic and the ones that mana drain.

We get through these parts but the ones that are immune to magic make us look like a bunch of monkeys fighting over a banana and the ones that mana drain end up with 1 or 2 dead healers (once my mana is gone and I can't consecrate anymore). Our dps isn't the best anymore so this may have something to do with the issues here as well but any advice on tricks to use against these guys would be much appreciated.
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Postby rabbel » Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:40 am

- Manadraining Worms: It's not the worms that kill your healers, its the big guy. When he teleports he resets his aggro, and then you can do nothing about it. Warriors and Druids seem to keep these guys a lot better after their teleport, but as a Pally you can only taunt once. When they turn you can't get any spell through their shield, which is often the death for one healer. The only tricks I have seen so far is getting a warrior or druid on the big guy, and if you don't have one ignore the worms and nuke the big one hard. Hopefully you can get him down before he decides to teleport.

- Magicimmune Worms: Nothing to do here except taking your big, bad hammer and smash them. More physical dps (i.e. Rogues, Feral Druids, Warriors, Hunters, Enhancer Shamans) helps a lot, but most of the times you have to use what you have at hand. They don't do a lot of damage though, it's just annoying.
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Postby Talmus » Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:20 am

rabbel wrote:- Manadraining Worms: It's not the worms that kill your healers, its the big guy. When he teleports he resets his aggro, and then you can do nothing about it. Warriors and Druids seem to keep these guys a lot better after their teleport, but as a Pally you can only taunt once. When they turn you can't get any spell through their shield, which is often the death for one healer. The only tricks I have seen so far is getting a warrior or druid on the big guy, and if you don't have one ignore the worms and nuke the big one hard. Hopefully you can get him down before he decides to teleport.

- Magicimmune Worms: Nothing to do here except taking your big, bad hammer and smash them. More physical dps (i.e. Rogues, Feral Druids, Warriors, Hunters, Enhancer Shamans) helps a lot, but most of the times you have to use what you have at hand. They don't do a lot of damage though, it's just annoying.


So basically if you have a paladin tank the manadraining worms are just a dps race to kill the big guy fast...the little guys don't do much damage, they just annoy the heck out of you draining your mana. The other fight we never have any deaths so I guess we're doing that one right...it just looks ridiculous. Maybe having everyone not so spread out would help on both fights...if you're not sure how threat is going to go I'd much rather have everyone close than have everyone spread way apart.
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Postby ulushnar » Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:44 am

rabbel wrote:- Manadraining Worms: It's not the worms that kill your healers, its the big guy. When he teleports he resets his aggro, and then you can do nothing about it. Warriors and Druids seem to keep these guys a lot better after their teleport, but as a Pally you can only taunt once. When they turn you can't get any spell through their shield, which is often the death for one healer. The only tricks I have seen so far is getting a warrior or druid on the big guy, and if you don't have one ignore the worms and nuke the big one hard. Hopefully you can get him down before he decides to teleport.


It's not just an aggro reset. Because all damage the elementals take is absorbed by their mana shield, they only get aggro from healing. This is one fight you basically have to spamtaunt.
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Postby Shirak » Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:47 am

We stand in a "Pile" next to the door jam and pull them. AOE hard and get the the big guy down and try to keep your taunt up, it's rough no matter what you do.

as for the magic imune worms, I pull out my decapitator.
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Postby Mordinm » Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:43 am

Ulushnar wrote:It's not just an aggro reset. Because all damage the elementals take is absorbed by their mana shield, they only get aggro from healing. This is one fight you basically have to spamtaunt.


This is a complete myth. Just last Kara I was trying out a threat spec without the shield toss for kicks. I pulled with mana tap, did no healing and still managed to keep the big guy on me untill he did his blink and agro reset. There is no way I would have kept him on me over healing agro if what you said is true. The big guys should have been pulled off with the first heal.

Their Mana Shield has exactly no impact on agro.
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Postby Lookit » Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:30 pm

Mordinm wrote:
Ulushnar wrote:It's not just an aggro reset. Because all damage the elementals take is absorbed by their mana shield, they only get aggro from healing. This is one fight you basically have to spamtaunt.


This is a complete myth. Just last Kara I was trying out a threat spec without the shield toss for kicks. I pulled with mana tap, did no healing and still managed to keep the big guy on me untill he did his blink and agro reset. There is no way I would have kept him on me over healing agro if what you said is true. The big guys should have been pulled off with the first heal.

Their Mana Shield has exactly no impact on agro.


I really have to agree that we can't generate aggro on them with their shield up. I have no trouble whatsoever solo-tanking all of Kara without losing aggro ever, except on these guys. I open with AS and then taunt after the teleport, which is usually enough time to down them, but if they don't die shortly after that taunt, they go *straight* for the healers, and there's really nothing I can do about it.

Perhaps in your case, the healers were smart and healed minimally. Keep in mind, heals already do 50% threat and the threat is divided evenly between all enemy targets. So with 8 mobs up, a 3k heal is only going to do 187.5 threat per mob. Paladins get an additional 50% reduction innately so that means 93.75 threat per mob. Remembering that they need 130% of your aggro to pull if they are outside melee range, you need only a very small amount of aggro (gained through mana tap, casting seals on yourself, etc) to hold aggro over the healers if they are healing as little as possible. If you're able to get 150 threat, each of your healers could heal you for 3,120 before pulling aggro (6,240 if its a paladin).

Hopefully that explains why you could generate very little threat but still hold aggro over the healers in a multi-mob situation like this.
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Postby Mordinm » Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:37 pm

I still find the no agro while shield is up hard to believe. I’ve never had any issues at all when tanking on my druid despite the bulk of druid threat being due to damage. The healer in question was a priest with no salv and literally the only threat I would have been generating is from holy shield, seal buffs, mana regen and PoM. I was defiantly taking enough damage that PoM was not keeping me up, they hit pretty hard even if they don’t hit often. If I'd have been speced 41 points in prot instead of 40 and gotten the high threat off the pull maybe I could see it but I wasn't.

The other thing is I would have a hell of time getting the big guy back after a blink because I would be drained of mana. If it was just a particularly good healer in the run it should have almost been easier after the blink with the 130% agro ceiling and increased threat from the taunt.

On the other hand I can’t say that I can recall ever seeing a dps pull.
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Postby ulushnar » Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:49 pm

Mordinm wrote:On the other hand I can’t say that I can recall ever seeing a dps pull.


This is it. Looking at omen (which I'm aware is no means conclusive) shows only myself and the healers on the big elemental. It's harder than you imagine to yank someone off a tank with just healing aggro, but once he resets at the teleport, then the tank has no aggro, but the healers do.

I've been running Kara at least once most weeks for the last fifteen months give-or-take and in that time I can't recall the large elemental ever going for a DPSer, or indeed anyone who isn't a healer after the port. The only exception I can think of might be a shadow Priest, but then again, they do generate healing aggro via VE and VT.
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Postby Seloei » Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:27 am

the big dudes do go for healers after they pass you on omen even before they blink. We outgear it by a long mile so quite often im not even tanking the big one but a healer after i miss the shield toss at start.
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Postby Dendrah » Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:50 am

Can he be stunned?

Might buy you time.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:58 am

No.
Paladins are disadvantaged on those worms because the big guy's mana shield means you don't do damage.
No damage = no threat.

No threat = bye healers.
Save taunt for as soon as he ports, hope you still have mana and that SA threat is good.
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Postby Wulfhere » Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:40 am

The 2 things I do when I have to tank the pre-Curator elementals is use the 4-piece D3 bonus to shave 2s off the RD cooldown. I also tank with SoW to generate threat and hopefully enough mana for a RD.
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Postby Talmus » Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:51 am

I think part of our problem is that in not understanding the mechanics of the fight we tried to have one tank on the worms and one on the big guy (both paladins) and we just ended up with 2 oom paladins. Next time I'll just drop an initial consecration and after that ignore the worms and just focus on hitting RD if I lose the big guy.
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Postby rabbel » Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:19 am

Even the Consecrate is quite useless, as from my experience, the worms don't give a damn about aggro and just leech whoever they like. As said, it's just experience, I'm not absolutely sure.

What you can do is making sure to throw the shield at the big guy, that will be more than enough to keep him on you until he teleports. With two Pallys you can establish a taunt-rotation to get that big guy from the healers after he teleports. If that's not enough and you have either a warrior or a druid of any spec in the raid you can tell them to go defensive stance / bear form and assist in taunting. He doesn't hit that hard on plate or pelt, so any spec will do. The worms manadrain shouldn't be much of an issue, you can always pop a potion when you are completely drained, which will allow you to use one RD, same for the second Pally. If that's not enough to bring him down you usually have both RDs on CD, so you have no RD AND no mana, and you are totally screwed :p.
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