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Having to teach people to play their classes

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Postby Bobu » Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:04 pm

EvilNuff wrote:
merinos wrote:it's true and another thing is:
people that actually play instances while leveling instead of being pushed bei 70s will in general understand their toon better and will be able to react intuitively on common mistakes people make...


I cannot disagree strongly enough with this statement. Wow is *so* easy, especially levelling up when you can just run an instance at higher level than intended, that in pugs you learn nothing about how to play your class in them.

Honestly I firmly believe that a person solo'ing a character to 70 and then spending 15-30 minutes reading a well done class FAQ will know their character better than someone who just levels up in pugs in instances all the way to 70 without any outside information. Heck I would take an ebayed character with someone playing who takes the time to read up on how to play their class before anyone who refuses outside information.


I have to agrree with you.

No matter which char im playing either my main or my alts, i've always taken the time to read about my class and whats expected of me and how to play etc....yeah you'll get your occasionall idiots/n00b/whatever you wanna call it, but hey what can you do. When ever I tank as prot I first lay down the ground rules, i give them a attack order that i will follow such as attack Skull first then cross then star and soo on.

If the dps keeps on pulling aggro tell the healer not to waste heals on them its simple as that or just kick them since you should have lead.

Nowadays since i respec holy it really annoying trying to help tankadins who are spec wrong or dont know what their doing, it always dude don't tell me how to play or some shit like that, hopefully they get it figured out at 70 when they start heroics...
I never really feel quite right
I don't know why, all I know is there's something wrong
Every time I look at you, you seem so alive

Tell me how do you do it, walk me through it
I'm following every
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Postby Spectrum » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:36 pm

I definitely try to help people when I see them doing something I am mostly sure is wrong. Usually I'll just ask them a question on why they're doing it that way as opposed to the way I'm used too. If they're receptive I can actually get them discussing things and figuring it out themselves. Tends to work way better than telling people what to do, but some people need that.

When I was leveling my pally I didn't see this as much. I'm guessing that's because I was the tank and could generally out-threat the bad DPS, threat enough mobs to protect the healer, and then all the healer had to do was throw a heal on me now and then. Usually when people couldn't CC we'd just do the pull anyway. Granted, there were still some spacy healers.

Now that I've been instancing on my druid, doing 90% healing, I'm beginning to realize how bad so many people are. There are some warriors and druids who can't tank more than one target, and some CCers who just can't figure out to CC the moon before we start hitting it, and some DPS who just don't understand what a skull is.

I wish you could have an anti-friends list. I don't want to completely ignore people, but I want to make notes on why I don't want to group with them again.
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Postby caboom » Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:28 pm

EvilNuff wrote:
merinos wrote:it's true and another thing is:
people that actually play instances while leveling instead of being pushed bei 70s will in general understand their toon better and will be able to react intuitively on common mistakes people make...


I cannot disagree strongly enough with this statement. Wow is *so* easy, especially levelling up when you can just run an instance at higher level than intended, that in pugs you learn nothing about how to play your class in them.

Honestly I firmly believe that a person solo'ing a character to 70 and then spending 15-30 minutes reading a well done class FAQ will know their character better than someone who just levels up in pugs in instances all the way to 70 without any outside information. Heck I would take an ebayed character with someone playing who takes the time to read up on how to play their class before anyone who refuses outside information.


u might not be entirely wrong but i disagree about the part with the learning, you cannot as in NO learn to tank as a tankadin by just reading any sticky anywhere on the internets, it just doesn't happen, the experience u get from actually tnking from lower lvls works alot in ur favour.

1 lil piece of advice i might add to this thread is to be very short with explanations as ppl are generally not bothered to read walls of text and won't read it. I always explain at the start of the instance("skull = 1st kill x=2ns kill moon = sheep star = sap, you pull u tank it", "w8 for mobs to come to me then u attack", etc.)
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Postby Kellann » Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:46 am

All CC classes can benefit from a focus macro. Granted that during the dungeon isn't the best time to try to get them to figure it out...but it's honestly a very very big difference.

Hell, I liked it so much on my shadowpriest that I have a focus macro for Turn-Evil even o.O

something along the lines of:

Code: Select all
#showtooltip
/focus [modifier:alt]; [target=focus,noexists];[target=focus, dead]; [target=focus, help]
/stopmacro [target=focus, noexists]
/cast [target=focus] Shackle Undead


Usage:
1 - select your CC target (pre pull is best :P )
2 - tap the key you bound this to (a focus pane will pop up)
* either do this from out of CC range, or be prepared for it to start casting
3 - go do your merry DPS occasionally tapping that key again to re-CC without target swapping

*on-the-fly changes can be accomplished by holding Alt while pressing the button - this will force a change of focus to your current target.
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Postby Trieth » Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:13 am

PvP gear isn't an indication of knowing how to PvE. PvP is a completely different playstyle so I'm usually not surprised if someone in full S1 gear with as much health as the tank doesn't know how to PvE.

People are quite often willing to listen if you tell them in the right way. And I've found it's worth trying just to avoid the frustration of a bad instance run. There is the crowd of PvPers who say PvE sucks, blah blah blah, PvP is the only real challenge, etc and never listen. If you get one of them just brace for a painfull run or kick and replace.
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Postby Dendrah » Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:36 am

You need to control your party. If you don't control your party then you are no good tank.

Aggro is something you don't make towards the mobs but that you do make over your teammates.

I put one mark and they bloody hell stick to it or get kicked... simple as that. I actually have people coming back to me for tanking because they know I'm so strict on those things. The people coming back all happen to run a high level instance on their mains... How woudl that fit in? :D

If a PvP player comes along and he doesn't know his job then you can always try to explain. If not working... kick...

DPs is easy to find. CC is hardly needed and a healer who doesn't know his job won't be any good anyhow.

Your time is valuable. Don't waste it in bad groups!
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Postby iwillpunishu » Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:36 am

This thread made me laugh. I've had so many bad pugs. It makes me happy to see I'm not alone. I ran into this more when I cared about cc, now I just whip my shield in and go. While leveling my Feral druid though, god there were some horrible players. I remeber once I told a hunter his mark was square, and he told me for some reason his icetrap only works for like 2 or 3 seconds, but he said he will do his best, so I'm watching him play, and he was right, his icetrap only worked for like 2 seconds everytime, so finally I click on the mob. He is hitting the mob with serpent sting(not sure if thats the right name..its the one that dots) everytime, so I explain to use something else when pulling, and for the rest of the instance he did great. Poor bastard leveled all the way up to 70 without being able to to icetrap anything. I always try to teach, and if they dont listen, I either leave or kick the offender out.
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Postby Seloei » Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:52 am

The fact is, almost every pug group you do, consists of people who are either new at instances, new at lvl70 or don't know good people themselves. After a while you just manage to weed out the good ones and the ones who can be better and you forego puging altogether. You join the groups they make or you make the groups yourself and the problem is never encountered again.

The fact is, to reach 70 is easy and to get "good gear" nowadays you just hit the battlegrounds and gain honor and gain "free blue epix". Most people who do that have quite often no idea what something besides burst damage and threat is and they either pull agro/die or do terribad dps/healing. It's not something you can fix overnight, it takes a long time for them to realise that they are something wrong.

Most people do not like to be told they are wrong and will act quite frankly rudely even if you politely ask them to do X instead of Y and that Z is worse than C. You can not change people they either learn it themselves after a few pointers or they never do.
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Postby Wyleai » Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:38 pm

Got booted from a PUG yesterday for not letting the rogue sap at least one mob out of every pull... in gnomer... where frankly, even a warrior doesn't need CC.

Had to argue with a hunter in SM armory today who wanted to pull and freeze everything and kept asking me to stop consecrating...

I've almost never met a hunter that didn't insist on doing the pulling, and when told not to kept doing it anyway... Get a lot of mages and warlocks and shaman that try to do it too...

Few weeks back on my old draenei shaman I went into Uldaman and was glad to see a prot paladin join the group... until he showed up at the summoning stone with a 2H weapon and no talent points in redoubt or shield specialization. But hey, he had improved concentration aura. :P That PUG also had an arms warrior that insisted on being the tank because he was a warrior, and only warriors are tanks after all, which is like, cause, they do great DPS... :roll:

The problem is that you can point out to people what to do over and over and over again but they're not going to listen and when they cause a wipe for it, they'll just call you a bad tank and the healer a bad healer...

Sometimes it improves at the high levels, and sometimes it doesn't. I've had prot warriors ask me to be their off-tank - somewhat missing the point of how a tankadin works. I've seen countless healers go AFK in combat, or go OOM constantly... You can point out ways to improve, doesn't mean they will listen.

And you need to consider whether or not you're right.

No one wants to be given micro managed lectures on how to play their class. Its even worse when they already know what they're doing, are doing it right, and the micro manager still won't shut up.
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Postby Blackmaxx » Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:20 am

My2 cents

I once was Ret - I had a Pally tank try and tell me How to Play Ret - I lol'ed him With " I've been Ret all the time I know how to Play Ret.

But always Curious - Tried his Way - and OMG I increased my DPS -

Pulled my head in and thanked him - and Changed my PUG group style of play - and then started my search for more Ret Pally info -

When changing to Prot - Grabed a Warrior sword and shield - and watched myself get flogged - and go WTF - Whats going on here

Spent some time in wow forums which lead me to here - and go OMG i had NFI how to be prot - :)

After many many heroic dungeons and many many wipes - and getting Tank is usless in chat- then getting an understanding on how to play Prot - and then getting " Pally Tanks are great from groups i tanked for " and people asking me if they can add me to friends list - It all takes time......

With PUGS - i will try anything - Did H-mech with 2 hunters and 2 priests Was the quickest run i ever did -

But if i ever get a - DO this Try this - from anyone - I always try - even if it sounds dumb - cause i dont know everything - if it fails 2times - I do it my way -

Once a Pally healer would not Pass leader - I asked Why - he said it will be quicker if i do it - I said OK -2 wipes later - I pst - pass leader - he refused

Left grp - no grudge some people are that way and there are heaps of pug grps and lots of time to play
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Postby Sober » Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:36 am

Some DPS are just bad and stubborn because they can afk in a battleground and get gear. I've had plenty of pvp mages sheep once then ignore it in heroics and wonder why they got oneshot when the sheep breaks on them, or just any DPS that, when I try to LOS a pull, they never get to me because they think they can burst it down.

I can tank Ahune nice and fine and DPS shouldn't have any problems unless I got chain spiked into the ranged group and they get some of the dots. I knew the warlock was just terrible when I saw him walk in with full S2/S3 gear and he started SoCing the mini-adds that come out during phase 1. Plus he stood more or less right beside me dpsing the hailstone. And he kept insisting I couldn't tank it cause I only had "3 epics". I would've kicked him out from being so stubborn but he quit the party before I could.

Personally, I know groups go bad on the first pulls in some instances because the dps insist on soloing it before buffs are out and kill order is given, etc.
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Postby Wyleai » Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:14 am

Sober wrote:Some DPS are just bad and stubborn because they can afk in a battleground and get gear.
...
any DPS that, when I try to LOS a pull, they never get to me because they think they can burst it down.


The BANE of my tanking existence.
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