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The Value of Block

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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The Value of Block

Postby Segol » Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:47 am

Most paladins tanks that I have talked to agree that blockvalue is very bad for raid migitation purposes, and that its far better to stack armor and stamina to improve your survivability.

In this thread we ask the question, is block value really as bad as everyone says?

So what do we know about block?
First in any place where it matters in raids ALL your incomming melee damage will be through partially blocked hits. Secondly the blockvalue is counted after the damage is reduced via armor, so there is a weak synergy between armor and blockvalue. (The more armor you got the higher % dmg will be reduced with each point of block)

Lets take an average tank with a buffed hp of 15'000 and a armor that reduces incoming damage with 60% (should be around 16k). Imp RF further reduce melee damage taken with 6% giving our paladin a reduction of 62.4%. A boss that hits for 10'000melee would only hit him for 3760 but he blocks 300 of those so in his combat log we can read:

"Big badass boss hits you for 3460(300 blocked)"

Now those 300 might not seem like very much but lets think about it, without imp RF active he would have taken 4000damage, SO 300 dmg reduction in this case is actually bigger than The 6% from Improved RighteousFury. Actually the 300blockvalue is a reduction of 8%. To reduce the damage that much with Armor you would have too increase it with around 2000! Thats pretty huge.

Another fun conclusion is that you would need only 160 blockvalue to entirely negate the warrior advantage of Defensive stance :) And this is on a boss that smack you for 3500 per hit!

I think those values correspond pretty well with karazhan and entry lvl 25mans where most paladin tanks are struggling right now. My point is, blockvalue is NOT worthless for raids and should never be totally ignored when gearing for an encounter.

Ofcourse you would never gear specifically for blockvalue when tanking Gruul or HKM, and neither should it be prioritized over avoidance/blockrating that will get you uncrushable. But if you can afford it, It can make a HUGE impact when tanking AoE pulls, Moroes, Romulo or Prince. And It is equally reliable as armor for melee migitation purposes on raidlevel.

The most important thing I can see with blockvalue is that it THE stat to enhance our only real strenght so far (AoE tanking). And can really help to open up peoples eyes about what crazy things a paladin tank can pull off that no other tank could dream of doing.

Good luck with the blocking, And whats your views on blockvalue?
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Postby ulushnar » Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:58 am

I don't think anyone's arguing about Block being worthless, it's just it's lack of scaling that hurts its value in raiding.

Someone with 500 block value blocks for 500 wether the shot coming in is 100 (100%), 1000 (50%) or 10000 (5%) whilst the 6% from imp Righteous Fury will always reduce incoming damage by 6%, as will the 10% from Defensive Stance, or whatever % you get from armor.
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Postby Segol » Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:19 am

I agree that it doesnt scale, but realistically would any boss hit you for 10000 after armor? And even then its almost as powerful as Imp RF.

I think you get pretty good value for little statpoints using blockvalue on almost all bosses regardless of damage range. And while Pure armor is hard to come by blockvalue is much more common on many tank pieces. It will not just help you survive but lower the amount of healing needed aswell compared to stamina.
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Postby ulushnar » Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:29 am

Segol wrote: It will not just help you survive but lower the amount of healing needed aswell compared to stamina.


Once again, I tend to doubt that. In my (limited) raid tanking experience I can suggest that stacking stamina is far greater than block if the boss produces massive damage spikes. When Maulgar hits you for 6k and follows it up with a 9k Arcing smash in the blink of an eye, you need more than 15k health to survive it. Similarly, when the Prince follows up his 4k hit with two 4k thrash procs (that can't be blocked) and then another hit, if you don't currently have more than 13k health, you're dead and it's a wipe.

I personally love Block Value, and I'm always happy when a new item upgrade lets me stack even more. It's great for trash, off-tanking and heroics, but I wouldn't stack it over Stamina when I'm tanking the big guys.
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Postby Segol » Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:03 am

Hmm. You might be right about the stamina...

Darkmoon card: Vengance would give you +51 stamina
That would result in (51 x 1.06(talent) x 1.10(BoK)) x 10 = 595hp

While Autoblocker will give you 59blockvalue, With talents this turns into 77 blockvalue so if the boss have to hit you 8times before you die then Autoblocker is better.

However, If you anticipate the burst (can be done in some cases with addons) And pop the +200blockvalue effect you would have 259 x 1.3 = 337 extra block.

So then the boss would have to kill you in a single hit else autoblocker is the best for migitating these rare cases. (it would have a maximum uptime of 16.7%)

However blockvalue also reduce the damage about as much as equal statpoints armor does for raidbosses. And thus make you easier to heal over all. So consider it more of a complement to stamina (much like armor) Rather than a replacement.

I don't have much raidtanking experience either, does paladins tanking in SSC/TK+ Value block much?
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Postby DJSticky » Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:37 am

Segol wrote:I don't have much raidtanking experience either, does paladins tanking in SSC/TK+ Value block much?


Trash yes, most bosses no.

I'm playing with my gear and the effective health calculator atm, if I don't frazzle myself to much I'll probly make a post with what I've decided on.
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Postby Lore » Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:32 am

I love block value. I currently block for 521 in my standard tanking gear, and it goes up a fair bit when I pop my autoblocker. That means on a standard 5k unblocked hit, I'm blocking over 10% of it. Improved Righteous Fury doesn't become more effective until I'm taking unblocked hits of over 9k.

It's also godly for AoE tanking, which I do a lot of in BT/Hyjal.
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Postby Vanifae » Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:38 am

Block is critical for AOE tanking.
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Postby Baelor » Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:50 am

Who ever said Block Value was bad? I love that stat, and Joanadark has a whole slew of theorycraft springing from Ciderhelm's "Effective Health" theory that involves blocking, block value, and flurry effects called "The path we follow". Read up, it's a good read. It posits that if bosses could flurry randomly, it would make paladins a more effective tank than warriors for those bosses, and block value value would be a huge boon in those situations.
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Postby Kvaern » Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:57 am

Don't know about BT/Hyjal but from my own experiences in SSC/TK there's absolutely no point in stacking block value beyond what your standard high threat trash tanking gear already gives you.
The one paladin OTing all Al'ars adds strategy being the possible exception I've yet to experience.

Even when tanking all morogrims murlocs with about 400 block value 1-2 priests can easily keep me up so I don't see any point in not stacking spelldamage over block value to get them down faster.
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Postby Lore » Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:20 am

It's a lot harder to fit spelldamage into your mitigation gear than it is to fit block value, though tier 5 tends to do both on most pieces.

The key to block value is that, although it doesn't scale to each hit like armor does, adding more block value scales a heck of a lot faster than armor does. Adding 30 block value to your set gives you another 0.5% damage reduction against a standard 6k unblocked hit. That's just a little under half as much damage reduction that I currently get from Devotion Aura, with only about a quarter of the item value.

Also unlike armor, block value has no diminishing returns. That essentially means it gives an exponential increase to your "time til death"; one point of block value will increase your time til death by a higher and higher amount as you add more block value. This is especially apparent in AOE tanking when you stack enough block value to simply stop taking damage entirely.

There's also a Tankadin-specific benefit to having a high block value - when you're in Ardent Defender range, your incoming hits are cut by 35%, which basically increases the effectiveness of your block value by 35%. This happens a lot for me in Hyjal, where I'll have several ghouls hitting me for around 1000 after a block, healers are occupied with someone else, I drop under 30% hit points and the 1000 hits become 10 or 20.
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Postby Baelor » Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:36 am

Lore wrote:It's a lot harder to fit spelldamage into your mitigation gear than it is to fit block value, though tier 5 tends to do both on most pieces.

The key to block value is that, although it doesn't scale to each hit like armor does, adding more block value scales a heck of a lot faster than armor does. Adding 30 block value to your set gives you another 0.5% damage reduction against a standard 6k unblocked hit. That's just a little under half as much damage reduction that I currently get from Devotion Aura, with only about a quarter of the item value.

Also unlike armor, block value has no diminishing returns. That essentially means it gives an exponential increase to your "time til death"; one point of block value will increase your time til death by a higher and higher amount as you add more block value. This is especially apparent in AOE tanking when you stack enough block value to simply stop taking damage entirely.

There's also a Tankadin-specific benefit to having a high block value - when you're in Ardent Defender range, your incoming hits are cut by 35%, which basically increases the effectiveness of your block value by 35%. This happens a lot for me in Hyjal, where I'll have several ghouls hitting me for around 1000 after a block, healers are occupied with someone else, I drop under 30% hit points and the 1000 hits become 10 or 20.

And this right here is why I leave most of the talking to Lore, as he can put things into perspective much more eloquently than I can. Note the posting discrepancy between our accounts. Well said, Lore.

Don't disregard *any* of your tanking stats. All of them have a use in different situations.
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Postby Lore » Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:39 am

Baelor wrote:And this right here is why I leave most of the talking to Lore, as he can put things into perspective much more eloquently than I can.


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Postby guillex » Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:41 am

Lore wrote:
Baelor wrote:And this right here is why I leave most of the talking to Lore, as he can put things into perspective much more eloquently than I can.


www.thesaurus.com

It's my bible. ;)


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Postby Eggfoo » Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:43 am

Keep in mind Warriors also love to stack block value as it's directly related to their threat (Shield Slam). It's their only stat that scales their threat up and there's the mitigation as an additional bonus. So it's not JUST a pally stat by any means.

What Warriors find useless that Pallys find useful (in some circumstances) is Block Rating.
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