Controlling your offtank

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Controlling your offtank

Postby Kinrain » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:08 am

I'm just full of questions today! :D

We run Kara weekly and don't really have any issues with it. But this week i've noticed the OT (GL Prot Warrior) is pulling aggro no matter how hard I try to keep it. (Consecrate, SoR/JoR, Exorcism, Holy Sheild and Ret Aura)

I have nearly 400 +Spell Damage which I know should be more than enough and I know he's not taunting. He's got some gear upgrades recently but we're about on par, he did mention learning some new tricks with Devastate so maybe thats it?

Its not a huge problem (except to my Heroic sized e-Peen) but I do feel that its not as efficient as having one heal target and I do get some mana issues when it happens as the heals switch to him (further compounding my threat problem).

As my GL/RL he's great fun, we have a laugh and he prefers me to MT which I like very much. We're also normally a great Tank team (with our Feral partner).

Any suggestions on what I could ask him to do to maximise his dps but not draw aggro? I've threatened him with BoSalv which made him laugh but i'm quite serious :twisted:
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Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:19 am

Devastate does a huge frigging ton of TPS early because it coutns as both devastate itself and applying a Sunder. It normalizes after sunder is at 5-stack, I'd rather want to see both your gears to be able to tell what the difference is, but once you stabilish threat he shouldn't be able to catch up easy.
Is he popping cooldowns?
Are you attacking the target too?
Are you Avenging? AW is a lil monster and should be used every cd if you don't need the bubble.
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Postby Seloei » Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:40 am

The only way i could see a warrior pulling threat away from a pala in kara... is if he is going balls out with extra threat at the start of the fight without knowing that paladins get threat from holy shield + SA.
Exorcism (when used on CD) is alone nearly a 100-150 extra TPS. Combine that with your consec+sor/jor+hs and noone should be even close to you (unless they outgear you)

To maximize his dps while not beating you ask him to wait with the sunders or salv him. Also an OT who doesn't know how to "not go past the maintank" on a single tank fight is err... uhm... err... stupid?
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Postby Kinrain » Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:16 am

No he's not stupid. The whole guild likes the play the 'Lets-see-if-we-can-get-the-aggro-off-Kinrain' game sometimes, I promised them a cookie if they manage it. We're not very serious people and like to have a laugh but still get the job done properly.

And I wouldn't mind but I know he's not doing it deliberately and can't see how he is able to get that much aggro.

By the time he gets onto my target i've hit it with AS, SoR, JoR and least a couple of ticks of max rank consecration. Not to mention the extra threat from Ret Aura and HS blocks.
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Postby Truckle » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:43 am

Kinrain wrote:By the time he gets onto my target i've hit it with AS, SoR, JoR and least a couple of ticks of max rank consecration. Not to mention the extra threat from Ret Aura and HS blocks.


Mix an exorcism in there on the pull for extra frontloaded threat.. AS, Exor, JoR, Cons.. work Exor in when you have cooldowns on normal rotation where possible
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Postby Ghort » Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:42 am

I've found that AS pull, judge SotC while consecrating/HS, whichever is your preference on timing, and dropping the exorcism after holy shield is up throws quite alot of aggro quickly. I only run with around 300-350 SD thru kara, and normally dont have any problems with people pulling off of me... then again, we normally dont have those good natured competitions either, but it sounds like a fun idea to accually make me break out the big consecrates....
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Postby Lowgrus » Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:22 am

dude thats just not even close feasable. NO way a warrior is getting aggro off of you when you pull with AS, judge him excorisim, and i dont even use max rank concecrate.

try putting righous fury on. Becuase you have to be doing something severelly severly wrong. Even a t6 prot warrior would have issues doing that. thats just to much upfront threat.

Its illogical for him to be pulling off you even if he is trying. and especially if he is not trying.

Which brings me to my next point why even bring a prot warrior to kara?

try putting rightous fury on or something....
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Postby Ghort » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:15 am

I have a prot warrior offtank - he was my MT while i was gearing up... its useful due to i dislike tanking maiden, since he can do a much better job than i can.... and at least he's uncrushable unlike having a bear offtank.

furthermore, you cant really tell your guild lead to piss off from the raid... kinda doesnt make him want to keep you around...
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Postby Lore » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:22 am

Snake-Aes wrote:Devastate does a huge frigging ton of TPS early because it coutns as both devastate itself and applying a Sunder. It normalizes after sunder is at 5-stack, I'd rather want to see both your gears to be able to tell what the difference is, but once you stabilish threat he shouldn't be able to catch up easy.


This.

With a warrior and paladin in equivalent gear, the Warrior has better threat for the first 10-15 seconds or so (unless the Paladin pops wings) depending on their rotation. After Sunder caps out, their threat drops a bunch.
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Postby Aerfalle » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:14 am

If it gives you mana issues, are you past the point of needing an OT?

Bring a dps warr or druid with a tanking set for netherspite and tank everything else yourself. If that's not an option, then tell your current OT that you need to have more mobs on you for mana.
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Postby Minn » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:59 am

If you're trying for threat and can use Exorcism, I'd go with JotC as early as possible. If you're not worried about dying you can take BoSanc over something else for free aggro. Libram of Divine Purpose is also good for a threat boost. Not sure if you're getting misdirects, but if you're setting up for long-term threat (say, JotC as your first judgement) a MD can help keep things under control if you've got a warrior charging and trying to pull aggro. Another trick is popping a potion for some extra threat. Destruction Potions are the best, but a super mana or super rejuv will add some threat as a power gain.

OK, I'm guessing the reason he's pulling ridiculous threat is he's doing these moves in defensive stance. If he's in charge of TClap/Demo Shout/Sunders they should be applied in Battle Stance, only switching over to Defensive Stance when he's actually getting hit. Which fights are you using an OT for? Or is he just the guy that tanks if you die?
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Postby TheHonage » Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:47 pm

Hint: Use Righteous Fury
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Postby Kinrain » Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:57 am

Sorry I didn't think I needed to say I was using RF, its always on as a standard practice.

This happened again last night. Pull with Sheild toss, Exorcism, drop a max rank consecrate as the mob/s get near, HS, SoR/JoR, then normal rotations.

And he still pulled threat off me. I said about the Devastate but he doesn't belive theres a high threat issue with using it. He stopped using any abilities at that point to avoid messing me up.

Normal buffs: BoK, RF, Wings when not on CD (or when not being reserved for the next Boss), MoTW, Elixir of Fort, Adept Elixir, Stam food, Righteous Aura plus a few others like Bloodpact etc.

Normally my +SD is at about 400-450 for Kara.
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Postby Barathorn » Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:11 am

Kinrain wrote:Sorry I didn't think I needed to say I was using RF, its always on as a standard practice.

This happened again last night. Pull with Sheild toss, Exorcism, drop a max rank consecrate as the mob/s get near, HS, SoR/JoR, then normal rotations.

And he still pulled threat off me. I said about the Devastate but he doesn't belive theres a high threat issue with using it. He stopped using any abilities at that point to avoid messing me up.

Normal buffs: BoK, RF, Wings when not on CD (or when not being reserved for the next Boss), MoTW, Elixir of Fort, Adept Elixir, Stam food, Righteous Aura plus a few others like Bloodpact etc.

Normally my +SD is at about 400-450 for Kara.


Have you checked your combat log or perhaps something more in depth like recount or a similar program, that should be able to tell you exactly what he is doing.

Then you can work to counter that with the way you pull.

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Postby Snake-Aes » Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:16 am

Make sure the shamans in your group aren't dropping Tranquil Air <grin>

You have to get a detailed log, because it makes little sense. exorcism + shield + judgment is easy 4500 threat. Takes quite a bit of work to build 4950 with 2 or 3 gcds(a lot more given you're still producing threat too).
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