Ret pally's affect on Prot pally threat

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Re: Ret pally's affect on Prot pally threat

Postby pyrotechniq » Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:28 am

Sloath wrote:
Thanks for the Edit Pyro, and my appologies for the bluntness of my initial post. I've just come to expect posts of a little more substance in this section of the forums, not one liners. In my original post, I should have made it more clear, the topic of this thread was not the issue, more the substance (or lack thereof) seemed to lend itself more to the General Discussion area of our fourms.


Sry, I had just found this forum, was excited about it and wanted to make a post. =p

I agree my original post had no meat on it at all.
Image
pyrotechniq
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:38 pm

Postby Daedallus » Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:22 pm

Unless that ret paladin is a superb player, and superbly geared, i don't see him having a spot in any raid atm. unless he can do decent dps, as well as be quick on the BoP, as well as know when to bubble and heal himself, and be quick on a Loh, ect ect ect. hes just no worth a slot. any other dps class is going to out dps him, on top of that hes MELEE, which for 75% of encounters is a liability.

the extra blessings are nice, and yes, raid dps upped by 3% is great. but it doesn't make up for having to heal him and the 40% more dps another mage, warlock, hunter, shadow priest, oomkin, ect will do, as well as offereing thier own special abilities and extras to a raid.

but then, i may just be predjudiced. if we didn't need dps warriors and rogues for interupts on some fights, i wouldn't bring any melee beyond tanks.
Image
Daedallus
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 1:32 pm

Postby corc » Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:57 pm

Daedallus wrote: i may just be predjudiced.


yup :D

Daedallus wrote:Unless that ret paladin is a superb player, and superbly geared, i don't see him having a spot in any raid atm.


goes for any class/person right? :roll:
Dwarf Pali on Ner'Zhul
"Mostly Harmless"
corc
 
Posts: 320
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 2:52 pm

Postby Daedallus » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:50 pm

nah, mages, warlocks, priests, can be pretty substandard skillwise and still perform thier responsibilities if given instructions. imo anyway.

even most warriors don't actually need to do any research or know mechanics to do reasonably well at tanking. the shieldblock/revenge combo is pretty self explanitary, and a lot of them get MT roles just on the fact that they are the warrior with the highest hps when they enter a zone.
Image
Daedallus
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 1:32 pm

Postby corc » Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:55 pm

Daedallus wrote:nah, mages, warlocks, priests, can be pretty substandard skillwise and still perform thier responsibilities if given instructions. imo anyway.


and where will you find these substandard players on the charts? at the bottom somewhere most likely, and where are you saying the ret paladin is with substandard skills is? at the bottom :lol:

also, if anything. if a ret paladin is in the raid and is on the top ten, inching up on the charts this prejudice (which you have a share of) makes the other dps work harder "to keep that retnoob in his place". :P

I know plenty of raids that bring in a huntard just for his aura, seems like the retardadin can fill that roll just as well.

In anycase, we are just jumping back and forth on opinions, I think we both agree that the advantages of the ret pali in a paladin tank group are very very nice... whether or not the raid leader wants to invite one into the group/raid or not.

Have the last word if you wish, I'm done ;)
Dwarf Pali on Ner'Zhul
"Mostly Harmless"
corc
 
Posts: 320
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 2:52 pm

Postby Kvaern » Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:12 pm

Daedallus wrote:Unless that ret paladin is a superb player, and superbly geared, i don't see him having a spot in any raid atm. unless he can do decent dps, as well as be quick on the BoP, as well as know when to bubble and heal himself, and be quick on a Loh, ect ect ect. hes just no worth a slot. any other dps class is going to out dps him, on top of that hes MELEE, which for 75% of encounters is a liability.

the extra blessings are nice, and yes, raid dps upped by 3% is great. but it doesn't make up for having to heal him and the 40% more dps another mage, warlock, hunter, shadow priest, oomkin, ect will do, as well as offereing thier own special abilities and extras to a raid.

but then, i may just be predjudiced. if we didn't need dps warriors and rogues for interupts on some fights, i wouldn't bring any melee beyond tanks.


Prejudiced is an extreme understatement.

Your all ranged raid would be grossly outdps'ed by a raid with a pally tank + ret pally in the MT group and a melee group with a shammy, a dps war and 3 rogues.

Everything else being equal rogue DPS rules the wow universe, especially with a tank pumping out so much TPS they dont have to waste energy on dumping aggro, and did you know resto shamans were born to be uber melee healers and rogues get healed hellavu lot by the judgment of light the ret pally keeps refreshing?

But I guess omg offspecs Nihilum says bad.
Image
Kvaern
 
Posts: 509
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:45 pm

Postby Questioner » Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:27 pm

You wouldn't want an enhancement shaman in your group, you want a RESTO shaman. The Enh. Shaman goes in the melee dps group. The resto shaman can still drop WF. Windfury has comparable returns to WoA at 350 spell damage buffed, and scales BETTER than WoA.

MT Paladin (Devo Aura)
OT Warrior (TC, Demo Shout, Commanding Shout)
Retribution Paladin (Imp Sanctity Aura)
Resto Shaman (WF)
UA Warlock (Imp)
<3 Tankadin at Heart.

Not necessarily accurate: Armory
User avatar
Questioner
 
Posts: 672
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:17 pm
Location: US Gorgonnash, Elis Guild

Postby Trognar » Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:07 pm

This may be a biased opinion, having played a ret pally since creating it, but the ret pally (if spec'd right for raid buffing) is increasing the entire raid dps also by judging SotC.

Now i know its only a 3% crit increase, but with a tankadin in charge generating more threat with sanct aura, it also allows dps to do more dmg than they normally would.

Once again biased opinion, but if i had a choice of a good ret pally over a substandard DPS class, i'd choose the ret pally to get the most out of the raid.

BTW: Im currently a tankadin, still getting ignored the same amount when I was ret.
User avatar
Trognar
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:32 pm

Postby Cames » Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:54 pm

Last night I off tanked Gruul and found a big difference for me with a Ret Pally in place. With the 2 of us, I could have 2 Judgments (JotC and JoW) up and I got Sanctity Aura. The aggro difference for me was measurable. I don't have numbers off the top of my head, but I was having mana issues when we ran without him. I was debating whether to pot up (and thus lose my flexibility there) or to use JoW.
What is not dead can eternal lie;
In strange aeons, even death may die.
Cames
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:24 am

Postby Menardi » Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:29 pm

Daedallus wrote:raid dps upped by 3% is great. but it doesn't make up for having to heal him and the 40% more dps another mage, warlock, hunter, shadow priest, oomkin, ect will do, as well as offereing thier own special abilities and extras to a raid.


There was a post with mathematic proof showing that in a 25 man raid a retribution paladin only needs to do ~43% of the average dpser's dps to be contributing more than them. Obviously if you use many shadow priests it's going to be higher, many classes that get bonuses from crits and it's going to be less. This was not based on having a tankadin either, their contribution would be even greater if they were increasing the threat ceiling. You can look for the thread yourself if you feel like it, I'm pretty sure it was on the elitist jerks forum.

The fact of the matter is if you want to maximise raid DPS you will have a retribution paladin in the raid. If anyone tries to tell you otherwise they do not understand mathematics or have not been informed.
Image
Menardi
 
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun May 20, 2007 1:40 am

Postby kedalic » Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:03 am

I tanked gruul the other night with a MT group consisting of me, a holy/ret pally (for sanctify aura and crusader judgement), warrior (commanding), UA lock (imp) and a shadow priest (unlimited mana). The combination of the sanctify aura, and having crusader AND wisdom judged on gruul at all times was a 100 dps boost to my holy damage, for 190 more TPS sustained for the fight. That represents about 25-30% more sustained threat. As a point of comparison, a fully T6 class warrior will sustain 700-800 TPS maximum in BT content, so being able to raid buff your TPS nearly 200 TPS is justification ALONE to bring the ret paly, ignoring all other contributions (such as crit for the raid, and personal dmg and buffs).
Image
kedalic
 
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:52 pm

Postby Segol » Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:10 am

Nich wrote:If you're not desperate for a threat lead, then a ret pally in a tank group is kinda crap.


Why would anyone not want the huge free threat bonus?

Even if your on the Ok side on threat it would allow you to take off almost all your spelldamage gear (you obviously have pretty decent amounts of it if you never worry about threat). Instead you can now focus 100% off gear, food & buffs to survive the encounter.
Segol
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:41 am

Postby Lore » Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:11 am

Segol wrote:
Nich wrote:If you're not desperate for a threat lead, then a ret pally in a tank group is kinda crap.


Why would anyone not want the huge free threat bonus?

Even if your on the Ok side on threat it would allow you to take off almost all your spelldamage gear (you obviously have pretty decent amounts of it if you never worry about threat). Instead you can now focus 100% off gear, food & buffs to survive the encounter.


Because you could put him in a DPS group :P
User avatar
Lore
Global Mod
 
Posts: 7757
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:52 am

Postby kurros » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:49 am

Nich wrote:But don't try to say it's good for the ret pally because they can go all out. Who cares if they go all out, it's just wasting their mana, and, more importantly, means they're actually doing less damage - it's a threat ceiling, and their threat is going to depend on their damage.


Not sure what logic you are folloing.

It *is* a threat ceiling. But with the ret paladin in the tanks group, giving the tank some 15% more threat from sanctity aura and judgment of the crusader, that means the threat ceiling is 15% higher.

So yes, it would be good for the ret paladin, as he could do ~15% more damage without pulling agro.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
kurros
 
Posts: 497
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:51 am

Postby kurros » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:52 am

Lore wrote:Because you could put him in a DPS group :P


Ret paladin could give the dps group 2% more damage.

Or, you coulds put him in the tank group, and all of your warlocks fury warriors and enhance shamans who previously had to hold back could do up to 15% more damage without pulling agro.

If your raid dps can't hit the threat ceiling, I guess it wouldn't help much, but I'd have to question what kind of gear and spec they use for PVE if they aren't threat limited.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
kurros
 
Posts: 497
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:51 am

PreviousNext

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot] and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot] and 1 guest