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Problem Making a Guild Decision

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Problem Making a Guild Decision

Postby Artos » Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:50 pm

(Hopefully none of the people from those guilds read this...)
Anyway, I have a dilemma, and I am not sure what to do.
I am currently in a guild that has Kara and Gruul on farm, has downed Magtheridon, and would be pushing into SSC/TK, except that, well, there are a few idiots in the guild who aren't quite "professional" enough when it comes to raiding. Making mistakes that cause a wipe, or make things more difficult than it should be. There are enough people in guild A that I enjoy playing with that I have fun, and I'm in a position where I'm one of the two or three best geared tanks in the guild. One of those is taking a leave in several months, and the other one likes playing his mage, so although there are some warriors being geared up, I think I'll end up in a top position, and they accept me and (mostly) appreciate what I can bring. The idiots make things hard, though, like trying to tell me how to order kills on Morroes, when I'm the raid leader, or accidentally pulling Curator while the raid is buffing.
Also, I will be loosing friends to Guild B.
Guild B has all of T4 on farm, is working on T5, and has also downed Rage Winterchill. They have all their ducks in a row, know what they're doing, and are very professional. I've been offered a spot tanking, but as the guild leader put it, I would be MT on trash and OT/off heals for bosses. They use bosskillers quite a bit, and although they appreciate that having a paladin will make clearing trash go faster, "most bosses call for single target tanks, warriors, druids, and such" I wonder what the "and such" is, but that's beside the point. I'm not a glory hound, and I'm not going to demand a spot MTing bosses, but this isn't Trashtankadin.com, it's maintankadin.com, you know?

Choice A: a good spot in a potentially disappointing guild, (and I feel bad even considering leaving, but I don't think the wipes and drama is worth it, unless things change), while four-five of my friends (who brought me to guild A) go to guild B.

Choice B: potentially disappointing spot in a good guild, ditching guild A to fend for themselves.

Not sure what to do, though I'd ask for advice.
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Postby Targonis » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:04 pm

A tank team is called a tank team for a reason... its a team effort and a prot warrior DPSing vs you off-healing with a decent healing set is a toss up for some fights, others you need to heal, other DPS races they need to DPS.

Honestly, I would rather raid in a guild that appreciates my abilities as a tank, even in an off-tank spot, that runs professionally and smoothly. It's not always about who gets to tank the bosses, but its ALWAYS about are you doing the role you have as effectively as possible.
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Postby Worldie » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:26 pm

From what you describe about the guild B, it's one of those guilds where you would never tank a boss, just trashs and go healing on bosses.


I'd not join them, even if the guild A was such a failure.
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Postby Joanadark » Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:10 pm

a couple points:

Point One-
99.99999% of the time, if you have to ask whether you should leave the guild you're in, the answer is yes.

Point Two-
I began my tanking career in a far less generous position than what guild B offered you. My guild didn't even want me at all. You earn opportunities.
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Postby Achtung » Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:16 pm

Find Guild C that is looking for a capable tank of any class to actually get in there and tank shit.

Or whip Guild A into shape, boot the scrubs and recruit people who are motivated and focussed.
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Postby halabar » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:35 pm

Use guild B to gear up, then find Guild C to be the maintank if you haven't gotten the chance yet.
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Postby Soltyr » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:14 pm

To point out what Joanadark said wisely at the point two.
If you think of a guild looking for the MT, there are two scenario usually: 1) the guild is just forming, 2) the guild is near to quit.
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Postby Splug » Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:06 am

Soltyr wrote:To point out what Joanadark said wisely at the point two.
If you think of a guild looking for the MT, there are two scenario usually: 1) the guild is just forming, 2) the guild is near to quit.
A real-world equivalent: if the company president retires, does the vice-president move up to president, or do you go looking outside the company to recruit someone right to the top?

Any guild you join is going to put you at the bottom of the totem pole. You'll have to work your way up from there. If you want to stay at the top where you are now, then you're going to take a lot of work to bring the guild up. Ultimately, getting where you want to be is going to be a lot of work either way, but would it mean anything if it wasn't?

That said: I personally don't approve of bailing on guilds "because they suck." The grass is always greener somewhere else if you look hard enough, and more often than not, you find out that all you've done by swapping guilds is gain 5-6 farm bosses, trade one set of problem guild members for a new set of problem guild members, and reset your DKP/prestiege to 0.
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Postby Balanor » Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:34 am

Worldie wrote:From what you describe about the guild B, it's one of those guilds where you would never tank a boss, just trashs and go healing on bosses.


I'd not join them, even if the guild A was such a failure.


Ultimately, its your $15 and it depends on how you want to spend it playing a game. I was recently in a similar situation and chose course "B" and joined the more progressed and businesslike guild. What I found tho, I didn't like. Sure, we cleared kara in a couple hours. Sure we killed Gruuls without a single death and sure I got to be an offtank for one of HKMs cronies. Unfortunately, I found that outside of their raids, I was very rarely ever doing heroics and such with them as they preferred to stay within their own little comfy groups. As an new guild member and still being considered an outsider, despite trying to form groups to do stuff, I usually ended up either soloing dailies or doing stuff with my friends in my old guild. I lasted a total of 1 week in that guild before I just got frustrated and went back. Sure there were alot of decent people in guild B, they just had their own friends they liked doing stuff with which is perfectly fine when its their dollar too.

My suggestion would be to also consider the personalities in the guild you are thinking about joining and whether you feel like you would fit in. Typically, more progressed raid guilds are successful for a reason and thats because they take things more seriously and aren't typically accomodating to mistakes. This includes things like assuming everyone is fully capable of coming prepared to raids with flasks, pots and food and that in itself requires YOU to take that responsibility by doing the necessary farming/purchasing of materials in addition to the time you spend raiding.

There is also the sense of satisfaction you get from accomplishing something with a raid that doesn't overgear the instance which you most likely won't get if the rest of your raid is more advanced than you. In any event, as a new member to a raiding guild, you ought to be prepared to take a back seat in certain fights if they arent in serious need of a tankadin. Until you gear up appropriately to actually contribute to progression fights, all you will be doing is riding coattails in content they have farm.

YMMV
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Postby Daine » Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:45 am

To put a little more flesh on what others have said, you earn your opportunities, but it's for you to gauge whether you'll be able to earn them. You're going to start at the bottom and have to prove yourself, bust your arse, deal with some crap but eventually something will come up. If they see this something and think 'Hey, this guy could do it!', great. If it comes up and they look elsewhere, recruit warriors and so on it's not the place for you.

If the guild you're in is full of drama, you don't enjoy the atmosphere and don't feel indebted to them, bail. Prepare to put in a lot of work with a new community to be accepted though.
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Postby Catriona » Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:47 am

Worldie wrote:From what you describe about the guild B, it's one of those guilds where you would never tank a boss, just trashs and go healing on bosses.


I'd not join them, even if the guild A was such a failure.

We all have to start somewhere.

but as the guild leader put it, I would be MT on trash and OT/off heals for bosses. They use bosskillers quite a bit, and although they appreciate that having a paladin will make clearing trash go faster, "most bosses call for single target tanks, warriors, druids, and such" I wonder what the "and such" is, but that's beside the point. I'm not a glory hound, and I'm not going to demand a spot MTing bosses, but this isn't Trashtankadin.com, it's maintankadin.com, you know?

If you're willing to put in the effort to show them how great having a paladin tank can be, then maybe they're willing to be shown. But again, you have to start somewhere. At least they're willing to accept that you're a tank and useful. Take that, and run with it.
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Postby Kelaan » Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:45 pm

Catriona wrote:So far we've used our paladin tank in every boss fight in Sunwell... and not our bear.


This is a side-question. Is there room for more than one tank of a particular type (but especially paladins) in a raid team? Sure, people may not have perfect attendance, but being #1 benchwarmer isn't something many want.

Given that most raid teams have only ~1 paladin tank spot (or am I mistaken?), how does one actually find a tanking spot? I have friends/acquaintances in several guilds, and it seems like all of them have a tankadin (or two?) already. When their current MT is already a tankadin, I worry that I'd not be able to do much.

Which is a pity, since I like the _people_.
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Postby kalbear » Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:57 pm

This is a side-question. Is there room for more than one tank of a particular type (but especially paladins) in a raid team?
There's room in most guilds for 4, perhaps 5 at most tanking characters. You should have at least one of each class, though you don't absolutely need a feral for anything. After that, it's really a matter of getting people that are good in general. Ideally I think you'd have one prot pally, one prot warrior and two feral druids since that allows bringing 4 tanks while not having any (or many) sit out for most 1-tank boss fights, but really - it comes down to the tanks themselves. Good tanks are hard to come by, and they'll be able to do most anything regardless of class.

But most guilds will only want one prot pally since chances are they've already got their tanking core set up. Also, most guilds will only want one prot pally because they have inherent prejudice against them. I also think that warrior tanking is the most forgiving of bad players; a bad pally tank will simply fail to tank, whereas a bad warrior tank will be suboptimal but not outright fail quite as often. That's just my personal prejudice though.
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Postby Dorvan » Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:25 pm

Prot Pallies also don't stack well with one another. If you've got two AoE tanking, each of them gets half of much mana as one would. They can't taunt off out each other effectively, etc.

The ideal raid has *exactly* one Prot Paladin, and as such the best guild make-up has 1-2 prot pallies (optional back up prot pally). The ideal 4 person tank team imo is:

1 Prot War
1 Prot Pally
2 Feral Druid
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Postby Amirya » Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:57 pm

I've run with another prot pally before, and yes, it was a bit brutal on the mana. Part of it was, the raid leader wasn't giving me anything to tank, not even solo tank.

At the least, with two tankadins, you can chain pull like mad.
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