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ZA 4 Timers

Nalorakk, Akil'zon, Jan'alai, Halazzi, Malacrass, Zul'jin

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Postby Kellann » Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:52 pm

@ op

2 rogues + warrior + palatank....and no WF totem

/fail

in essence you're buffing the DPS that gets easily threatcapped, nerfing your threatgen, and vastly nerfing the DPS that DOESN'T get threatcapped
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:53 pm

Canuun wrote:
Helenia wrote:End-all be-all group for timed ZA:

Group1:

Enhancement Shaman
Fury Warrior
Rogue
BM Hunter
Feral Druid

Group2:

Prot Paladin
Resto Shaman
Holy Paladin
Destro Lock
Ret Paladin

3 judgements up on ALL bosses, 2 heroisms, perfectly synergistic melee group, 3 pally buffs.


The ret paladin is going to do terrible dps unless the shaman in g2 isn't dropping WoA, and even then he is missing Battleshout, LotP, and the benefit of twisting from the enhancement shaman. If that's your makeup, I would swap the hunter and the ret paladin, since I think the hunter gets the least out of that group. However, I think dropping one of the people in g1 (rogue or hunter) for another caster for g2 (mage or another lock, or even a shadow priest depending on mana issues) would be even better.


Agreed. I'd at least drop the Ret Pally for a Shadow Priest. I'd probably also drop the Warrior or Druid for a Mage or 2nd Warlock and keep the Prot Pally in group 1 except on trash, where they go to G2 for the S.priest (putting the Warlock into G1 for trash would be fine).
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Postby Caelus » Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:54 pm

Playdoh wrote:I have been OT on ZA through malacrass and full clears as Holy.

I was having a little bit of mana issues for the birds on the way up to the eagle boss when an idea came to me.

I take the birds as holy or as tank, and don't get enough damage to get SA and run out of mana. Which usually leads to a dps dying. The warrior tank (RL) is still figuring out Paladin Tanks, but I am starting to tank with them.

Reading these forums I actually took a ret pally trick and used it. Going to the eagle boss I will put BoSac on the MT, (have done this 2X now) that way I take more dmg and get a little more mana back from the smaller heals.

It worked out great both days I tried this. I am sure if you are MT you could just boSac on the OT. I didn't have nearly as many problems, because I started taking damage sooner.

One pally buff missing isn't going to hurt anyone on those trash pulls to the eagle boss, and the extra mana is worth it.

On the other trash pulls i seem to take enough damage that it doesn't matter too much.


Just tank the dudes as well as the birds.
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Postby Kellann » Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:12 pm

Playdoh wrote:Reading these forums I actually took a ret pally trick and used it. Going to the eagle boss I will put BoSac on the MT, (have done this 2X now) that way I take more dmg and get a little more mana back from the smaller heals.


cost: 135mana every 30s

so 1350 healing of damage caused by this is the break even point.
Most mobs have swing timers of ~2s
Most tanks have 50%+ avoidance

With those napkin numbers, on average each mob beating on your target gives you ~58% of the mana you spend over the course of 30s.

So a [good] warrior or druid holding 3 mobs in your 10man will be netting you a whopping ~100 mana every 30s....

Conclusion - You'll get more back by TAUNTING their mobs off :)
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Postby Caelus » Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:23 pm

Kellann wrote:
Playdoh wrote:Reading these forums I actually took a ret pally trick and used it. Going to the eagle boss I will put BoSac on the MT, (have done this 2X now) that way I take more dmg and get a little more mana back from the smaller heals.


cost: 135mana every 30s

so 1350 healing of damage caused by this is the break even point.
Most mobs have swing timers of ~2s
Most tanks have 50%+ avoidance

With those napkin numbers, on average each mob beating on your target gives you ~58% of the mana you spend over the course of 30s.

So a [good] warrior or druid holding 3 mobs in your 10man will be netting you a whopping ~100 mana every 30s....

Conclusion - You'll get more back by TAUNTING their mobs off :)


lol This is so true I almost came.
To break even your BoSac target will need to take atleast 13 hits in 30seconds.
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Postby arilink » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:57 pm

First Bear today!

Talking about Synergy:
Group 1:
Druid (Resto)
Priest (Spirit) or (Shadow)
Priest (CoH)
Shaman (Elemental)
Paladin (Prot)

Group 2:
Warrior (Fury)
Shaman (Enhancer)
Hunter (BM)
Paladin (Retri)
Druid (Feral)

T4/T5/Badge
SSC 2/6, TK 2/4, MH 1/5

The real problem about perfect lineups is getting a common date.

In Detail:
00:00 - 00:32 (00:32) ; Amani'shi Guardian (x2)
01:10 - 03:15 (02:05) ; Eagle Gauntlet
03:47 - 07:00 (03:13) ; Akil'Zon
07:35 - 08:29 (00:54) ; Amani'shi Tribesman (x3)
09:06 - 09:55 (00:49) ; Amani'shi Medicine Man (x4)
10:16 - 11:13 (00:57) ; Amani'shi Warbringer (x2)
11:41 - 13:07 (01:26) ; Amani'shi Warbringer (x4)
13:28 - 16:53 (03:25) ; Nalorakk
17:21 - 17:31 (00:10) ; Amani'shi Scout
17:41 - 18:25 (00:44) ; Amani'shi Flame Caster (x4)
18:45 - 19:17 (00:32) ; Amani'shi Beast Tamer (x6)
19:35 - 19:43 (00:08) ; Amani'shi Scout
19:52 - 19:56 (00:04) ; Amani'shi Scout
20:06 - 21:10 (01:04) ; Amani'shi Flame Caster (x5)
21:15 - 22:05 (00:50) ; Amani'shi Flame Caster (x4)
22:34 - 31:52 (09:28) ; Jan'Alai (Wipe, Kill within 03:13)
32:26 - 33:04 (00:38) ; Amani'shi Flame Caster (x2) pat
33:06 - 33:32 (00:26) ; Amani'shi Handler (x6)
34:53 - 38:08 (03:15) ; Amani'shi Beast Tamer (x16) "gauntlet"
38:16 - 38:58 (00:42) ; Amani'shi Beast Tamer (x4)
39:11 - 40:55 (01:44) ; Amani'shi Flame Caster (x8)
41:16 - 44:44 (03:28) ; Halazzi

(The number in brackets indicates the approximate number of mobs involved)
Last edited by arilink on Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Blitzago » Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:54 am

Kellann wrote:@ op

2 rogues + warrior + palatank....and no WF totem

/fail

in essence you're buffing the DPS that gets easily threatcapped, nerfing your threatgen, and vastly nerfing the DPS that DOESN'T get threatcapped
would Prot War
Rogue
Warlock
Tree Druid
Rogue

Shadow Priest
Ele Shammy
Prot Pally
Mage
Holy Pally
Work much better then? With the prot war putting battle instead of commanding shout to give the rogues a little extra DPS? With ele shammy our prot pally shouldnt have a problem with threat, he will be roughly around 750 - 800 spell damage before he uses his trinkets, he uses 2 spell damage trinkets for ZA, the badge one and the one from hex lord.
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Postby arilink » Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:28 pm

An enhancement shaman is the keystone for melee DPS.
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Think we can do it?

Postby Tummykiss » Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:22 am

My group last night was as follows:

Pally Tank (15k hp unbuffed, so not the best in the world)
Feral OT
Rogue
Enhance Shammy
Hunter
Elemental Shammy
Mage (frost. Should he be fire??)
Shadow Priest
Holy Priest
Resto Shammy (me on my alt)

Both healers were 2300-2400 healing buffed, so healing was not an issue at all. 3 people, including the tank died on Eagle, but the OT picked him up and we didnt wipe (which was at 80% hp or so.) We druid soothed, and marked every pull and drank somewhat often.

We 1 shot all 3 bosses, and the moment Dragonhawk died, the timer ticked from 8 minutes to 7. So, nobody dying on the 1st boss would give us some time. We downed the Lynx in under 3.5 minutes also. Having 3 heroisms is sick, and everyone is mainly ZA/badge gear with a few t5.

Should we be aiming to have 13 or so minutes from the moment Dragonhawk dies? I know we need to be chain pulling. Do you mark kind of as you please? Last night was our first serious attempt, and 6 of the people were pugs, so I'm hoping we will have bear mounts soon! Any advice would be great.
Tummykiss- 70 Prot Pally Wildhammer
Gigglenig- 70 Resto Shammy Wildhammer
Sutherland- 70 Destro Lock Wildhammer
Philepeda- 70 Fire Mage Wildhammer
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Postby Lookit » Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:02 pm

Tummykiss wrote:Should we be aiming to have 13 or so minutes from the moment Dragonhawk dies? I know we need to be chain pulling. Do you mark kind of as you please? Last night was our first serious attempt, and 6 of the people were pugs, so I'm hoping we will have bear mounts soon! Any advice would be great.


What areas did you feel slowed you down a bit? Did you have any trouble with specific trash? I'll throw out some general advice that I've found to be helpful:

On eagle gauntlet, pull the first 4 mobs at once and kill the two windwalkers first. The pally should be in charge of everything "in front" (birds, windwalkers and protectors) and the feral should hang back to pick up the warriors that spawn in the back. Once the pally engages the last windwalker/protector pair, the feral should grab the tempest and they can all be AOE'd down.

On bear trash, the first pair of bears can be skipped if the druid soothes the closest bear and the raid sneaks by hugging the wall.

Regarding marking targets, we give everyone assist, but assign one of our warlocks to be marking the next pack when possible at all times, so there is *never* a need to wait while targets are marked.

For dragonhawk trash, make sure everyone knows to keep an eye out for scouts, in front and behind of the raid - that is everyone's responsiblity. As soon as one is spotted, it is announced on vent, marked and focus fired down, with intercepts, stuns, and roots.

If there is a single flamecaster in a pack, our spriest will mindcontrol it, making sure to announce when it breaks so that the tanks can taunt/stun it immediately. If there are two flamecasters, we will sheep the second. This can be tricky with consecrate, but as long as the sheep target is sheeped where it stands, the pally tank can freely use consecrate out of range of the sheeped mob.

Regarding mana, you want your pally tank in the same group as the spriest, no question. All mana users should bring a stack of at least 10-15 mana pots and pop them liberally during trash and bosses. If I'm at half mana at the end of a trash pack, I just pop a mana pot and pull the next pack.

Make sure your tanks (especially the pally) are gearing for max threat during trash, and then switching to mitigation gear for the bosses. Trash cannot crush (nor can the Bear boss or Lynx Boss, nor dragonhawk adds) so there is no need to be uncrushable.

On the dragonhawk boss, hatch one side fully and AOE it down, then hatch the second side fully.

On both the Bear & Lynx bosses, since the two tanks must stand directly on each other, we find it very helpful for both tanks to postion themselves and then have the hunter misdirect pull the boss to them. That way there is no risk of taking an undivided saberlash-style attack while getting into position.

In the lynx's room, the 2-mob pat that patrols around the room should be grabbed whenever it is near the group. They can easily be AOE tanked and don't hit hard or have annoying abilities, so they should be pulled even if you've recently engaged one of the packs. You don't want to have to wait a full minute or more for them to path into range again.

Perhaps the best piece of advice I can give is to try to get the same group together every time. When everyone is familiar with all the pulls and nothing has to be explained, that's when the runs really start going smoothly.
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Postby Seloei » Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:44 pm

You lost that much time because you probably weren't killing trash fast enough. Not to mention stops for drinking mana is unacceptable. You should either be chain-chuging mana pots or using mana regen items (fel mana pots for dps). Also dps dead faster == more timer on clock, tell them to use their cooldowns even on trash.

the group makeup is all for the "real good" combo but i have a bad feeling the melee group wasnt pulling it's own weight, they have no downtime so while a few drink you should be moving up to pull the next.

You need atleast 12 minutes on the clock after dhawk drops to get the bear, and that is with real good dps.

Also puging isnt really the option unless you know the people who you are asking by heart. N
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Postby Dassandic » Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:59 pm

Heres some basic strats my guild has used to beat the 4 chest timers as described by our infamous Raid Leader Tooq.
Tooq wrote:I'll put a layout of group set up.

1. A Prot Pally = usually Dass or Airan pally's
2. 2nd tank = either warrior or druid (preferably druid) for battlerez
3. AoE healer = either priest or shammy
4. 2nd healer = Druid for battle rez and hots (pally is doable, but just too hard on the move)
5. Shadow priest
6. Mage
7. Warlock (mage if no warlock)
8. Hunter
9. Dps shammy (enhance or elemental both work)
10. Rogue or any dpser


That's the setup i've been running with, dpser is easy to replace, but not tanks and healers.

Group 1 looks like this.
1. Prot pally
2. Shadow priest
3. Aoe healer
4. Elemental shammy (if you have one)
5. Mage


Reason for prot pally in the shadow priest group is so that the prot pally can continue to pull with little downtime.

Group 2:

6. Shammy (enhance if you have it)
7. Rogue
8. Tanking druid or prot warrior
9. Resto druid
10. Lock or mage


This group is your dps melee group.

We used to use invis-potions awhile back when we first did these runs, due to the fact that our gear was not yet Tier 6 level, the potions made up our 2mins. So here iswhere you use the invis-potions if are gonna use them.

1. By the 2 bears on the way to bear boss (save you about 15seconds, pet away if you have pets)
2. First pact on the way to hawk (only if you're really desperate)
3. The pack with the roaming tamer and 2 crocs on the way to lynx boss. (only if they are pathing toward the hut, if not just sheep the tamer and take out the crocs.)


Alrite, now let's go over boss fight.

Eagle Boss:

1. Control the windwalker and never let it cast a single chainheal on the way to the boss.
2. MD the boss to your tank and all out nuke the entire fight.
3. Run to your tank when it's 9seconds before the storm hit.
4. Run out when storm is over.
5. Loot your badge and mount up dont waste time drinking, you will be able to drink later


Kill the 2 patrol on the way to bear boss, the one pathing in the middle.

Bear boss:

1. Again, control the casters with curse of tongue
2. watch yourself on the trash pull, it's easy to die and wipe here
3. boss is easy, just spread out.
4. HoTs your tank tanking the bear phase, due to silence.
5. you should be done with him and have about 26-28mins mark left. 28mins is a very good indicator that your dps is on par.


Hawk boss:

1. Everyone is responsible for spotting scouts. (count down before killing. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...nuke)
2. Control the flamecaster to minimize group damage.
3. Dispel sleep when fighting tamers.
4. Kill one side of the of birds. everyone spread out. hunter frost trap helps alot here. (make sure to kill the flamehatcher when he's done hatching that side. or else he will spawn the other side and wipe your group)
5. Everyone must concentrate on SURVIVING the orange bombs on the ground.
6. Kill next side of birds
7. Rinse and repeat on SURVIVING the bombs.
8. You should be done with this boss by 15-18mins mark. 18mins is a very good indicator that your dps is on par again.

***Remember always control the flamecasters!! Work out a stun, silence, counterspell rotation.***


Lynx boss:

1. Skip the patrol in the middle if you're able, if not just take them out
2. If you're able to skip them, then pull the first lynx group to the corner where they stand.
3. After that skip the patrol in the middle also, simply wait for them to path away and run through pulling the next group and tank them where they are standing. (hope you have good imagination and understand what's im saying)
4. Continue to clear till you reach the boss....keep your group moving...dispel the mind control asap, it's very important!
5. Boss fight is easy, Warrior or Druid tank boss. Prot pally will tank lynx when he comes out. Stand on top of each other when tanking
6. Everyone spread out.
7. Be fast on dispelling Flameshock from people or they will die
8. Kill corrupted totem asap (everyone must kill it)
9. Rinse and repeat.
10. Grats on your bear mount

Flask and oil depending on your group gear lvl.
4 pieces of T6, you probably dont need to.
anything below that, you should
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Postby Lookit » Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:22 pm

Dassandic wrote:Heres some basic strats my guild has used to beat the 4 chest timers as described by our infamous Raid Leader Tooq.
Tooq wrote:Eagle Boss:

1. Control the windwalker and never let it cast a single chainheal on the way to the boss.
2. MD the boss to your tank and all out nuke the entire fight.
3. Run to your tank when it's 9seconds before the storm hit.
4. Run out when storm is over.
5. Loot your badge and mount up dont waste time drinking, you will be able to drink later



That is a great walkthrough!

The only thing I would mention is that we've had very bad luck collapsing on the tank when DBM says the storm is coming. It's important to remember that the DBM timer is merely the *cooldown* on the storm ability, and he can easily go an extra 20 seconds before he actually uses it. If the entire raid is collapsed on the tank that long, someone is going to die due to the chain lightning running rampant through the raid.

What we do every reset that works well for us is to simply have everyone spread out within the colored square with the boss tanked in the middle. Then, the second he starts casting Electrical Storm, everyone collapses under the person. It requires everyone to be paying attention but so does the rest of a timed run :)
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Postby Antharas » Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:39 pm

one thing i didnt see mentioned that helped our dps a little bit on lynx, is when he splits, judge the lynx really fast to make sure hes on u (assuming u have pally tanking). if u miss it have druid OT (we ALWAYS use druid OT) pick him up and then just taunt off of him. then druid goes cat form and helps with dps a little bit for that phase. its not too much of a boost cause hes in tank gear, but it helps getting totems down and stuff
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Postby Canuun » Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:14 pm

Lookit wrote:
What we do every reset that works well for us is to simply have everyone spread out within the colored square with the boss tanked in the middle. Then, the second he starts casting Electrical Storm, everyone collapses under the person. It requires everyone to be paying attention but so does the rest of a timed run :)


Turn off all your sound except for ambient noise, and turn that all the way up. When the storm is coming, you can hear the wind and rain pick up, and this gives you just enough time to have someone call it out on vent and have everyone collapse on the tank. No fuss, no worrying about someone being too far away from the middle.
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