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Postby Kelaan » Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:08 pm

Arcand wrote:Underbog Two bog giants right before the first boss. Not pleasant.


Having a hunter who can kite one of them away from you (jump off the ledge, cheetah to door, etc), as well as having cleared more of the trash near the entrance than most do, can make this much easier. Even if the hunter dies near the end (and I have), it can mean that your group gets one of them down before a tank gets gibbed. (Down side is, you're then only doing it with 2 DPS.)


Shattered Halls The gladiators training off in the side pits are pretty traumatic. They can be skipped if absolutely nothing goes wrong.


On the other hand, if you DO clear one side, that makes subsequent pulls in the hall a bit easier to LOS. Between stunning one of them, having someone like a frost mage or warlock who can kite them, or even sacrificing a pet on one of them, it can help a lot. I agree, though, I usually use a healthstone, potion, and both my dodge trinket and my blocking trinket on these guys -- and will often pre-load Gift of the Naaru as they're running to me.

Still, you're right -- it can be downright scary. I imagine that high block value helps here, but I really do like having ~50% avoidance on these packs (and heroics in general) -- I still take so much damage that I don't really run low on mana. (If I had high BV gear, I'd try that, but I don't have much.)
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Postby jere » Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:43 pm

I remember pre-nerfed Lt. Drake in heroic old hillsbrad...now he was scary.
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Postby Arcand » Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:51 pm

Kelaan wrote:Having a hunter who can kite one of them away from you (jump off the ledge, cheetah to door, etc), as well as having cleared more of the trash near the entrance than most do, can make this much easier. Even if the hunter dies near the end (and I have), it can mean that your group gets one of them down before a tank gets gibbed. (Down side is, you're then only doing it with 2 DPS.)


And that second Bog Lord is going to be awfully freaking big by the time he gets back to you. :P I totally believe this can work but have never tried it simply because I've been lucky with healers in hUB.


On the other hand, if you DO clear one side, that makes subsequent pulls in the hall a bit easier to LOS.


I normally clear both sides; I've wiped 3-4 times trying to skip the side pits when somebody from the middle group does some funny pathing (?) and aggros the gladiators. Even with healers I thought were pretty good I've ended up throwing HoJ to cut down the damage from these packs.

Basically, I'm concerned that with hundreds of us in here all trying to be alpha males, acting like nothing in the game has ever been difficult for us (you needed FR for Rag? ltp nub), a newcomer is going to get a badly skewed impression of the difficulty of these heroics and then wonder what the hell happened when they get annihilated on their first attempt - so I'm making a serious effort to put myself in the boots of a tank with 10.6k health, 11k armor, backed up by a priest with 1060 +heal and three DPSers somewhere in the 500-600dps range. :)
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Postby Arcand » Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:56 pm

Kelaan wrote:I think this is the level of intended difficulty for starting heroics. It's a challenge. Healers, CC, tanks all need to be in top form, and pulling out all the stops.


...and this is fine. I enjoyed it, we'd do heroic Mech with the agreement that we'd get the three easy badges up front and then decide if we wanted to call it a successful night or go for the two rough ones. (This was back when you could kite Serpethrea's elementals along the catwalk after killing Pathaleon.)

What weirds me is that Karazhan is nowhere near as hair-raising, wasn't even the first time we went in there, and yet the loot is better. It makes all the sense in the world to tell people to run heroics to gear up for Karazhan, but as far as difficulty goes it's more like you run Karazhan to get the epics so you can survive those evil heroics. :shock:
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Postby ldeboer » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:41 pm

jere wrote:
Worldie wrote:The people saying about the 12k hp prerequisite... i wonder what they would have told me when i was tanking heroics with 9k <.<


lol, yep I was thinking the same thing. These post 2.3 pallies are spoiled :P


Yeah but can you also remember how precise you would have to be with your class mixes in groups. I remember doing the attunement quest in H-SH and it may take 4 hours to get the exact party and each needed to know how to play there class.
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Postby ldeboer » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:51 pm

Arcand wrote:
Gimorth wrote:I would recommend that you run Mech early and often. I would consider it to be the easiest heroic by far. I would avoid the Hellfire instances, as those ones are real bastards in terms of HP expectations.


Truth.

The heroic things which are really harsh on the tank, in no particular order:

Shadow Labyrinth Murmur hyper-sucks on heroic. Run out to avoid party-wiping AoE #1, then run back in to avoid taking too many ticks from party-wiping AoE #2.

Caverns of Time - Durnholde Even post-nerf, the first boss hits kinda hard. It's a simple fight, at least.

Underbog Two bog giants right before the first boss. Not pleasant.

Blood Furnace The orc-a-thon before boss #2 will go pretty well for you, until you get stunned and the incoming damage suddenly doubles. Felguard Annihilators can rough you up pretty good too.

Hellfire Ramparts Some of them have Mortal Strike, and some of them hit fairly hard and stun.

Shattered Halls The gladiators training off in the side pits are pretty traumatic. They can be skipped if absolutely nothing goes wrong.

Mechanar Charged Fist.

The last four can be countered by CC and/or interrupts, which is why you'll sometimes see them recommended for new folks. If you don't have the CC and/or interrupts, I suggest you go for a heroic that isn't on this list...


Add Black Morass

Black Morass The second boss Temporus has
Mortal Wound — Debuff, cannot be dispelled: Decreases healing on target by 10%, stacks up to 7 (as of patch 2.2) times. Lasts 12 seconds

Learn to kite tank and profit :)

The last boss Aeonus has
Time Stop - AoE Debuff: Stuns all players for four seconds.

You must be able to absorb 4secs of damage without heals
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Postby jere » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:52 pm

ldeboer wrote:
jere wrote:
Worldie wrote:The people saying about the 12k hp prerequisite... i wonder what they would have told me when i was tanking heroics with 9k <.<


lol, yep I was thinking the same thing. These post 2.3 pallies are spoiled :P


Yeah but can you also remember how precise you would have to be with your class mixes in groups. I remember doing the attunement quest in H-SH and it may take 4 hours to get the exact party and each needed to know how to play there class.


Actually, it was rare that we had to precise with our groups. Most of it was learning how to deal with the different class setups. I ran mostly in a group that consisted of

Me
Priest
Ret pally
MS warrior
other

Sometimes the other was a CC, sometimes it wasn't.

A lot of it was more learning tricks to take out the hard stuff. Those were fun times honestly. Again though, I am talking about starting heroics. Some of the tougher ones did indeed take some gear and party makeups.
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Postby Gimorth » Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:44 am

jere wrote:
Worldie wrote:The people saying about the 12k hp prerequisite... i wonder what they would have told me when i was tanking heroics with 9k <.<


lol, yep I was thinking the same thing. These post 2.3 pallies are spoiled :P


I don't think it's the pallies that are spoiled, so much as it is EVERYONE who is spoiled by this point. People simply don't want to run heroics if they are going to be difficult. If you are running PUGs, nothing is worse than agonoizing over CC. A 12K HP level is the minimum that you would need to be allowed to tank by today's groups.
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Postby jere » Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:33 am

Gimorth wrote:
jere wrote:
Worldie wrote:The people saying about the 12k hp prerequisite... i wonder what they would have told me when i was tanking heroics with 9k <.<


lol, yep I was thinking the same thing. These post 2.3 pallies are spoiled :P


I don't think it's the pallies that are spoiled, so much as it is EVERYONE who is spoiled by this point. People simply don't want to run heroics if they are going to be difficult. If you are running PUGs, nothing is worse than agonoizing over CC. A 12K HP level is the minimum that you would need to be allowed to tank by today's groups.


Oh I agree. Everytime I see someone in my guild pass up on someone else due to gear, I kinda cringe. I understand wanting a fast easy run. I like them too, but I still think everyone deserves the great heroic/kara experience. The minimum gear level for that is much lower than we tend to remember I think. Shoot I repeatedly tanked Prince in the 10.5k unbuffed health range. Today, people would cringe at that and laugh if a tank with those stats wanted to tank a kara.
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Postby ulushnar » Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:46 am

jere wrote: Shoot I repeatedly tanked Prince in the 10.5k unbuffed health range. Today, people would cringe at that and laugh if a tank with those stats wanted to tank a kara.


I think I was round 12k unbuffed by the time we got to him, but even then it was a case of flasking up and chugging Ironshield pots like they were going out of fashion.
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Postby jere » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:59 am

Ulushnar wrote:
jere wrote: Shoot I repeatedly tanked Prince in the 10.5k unbuffed health range. Today, people would cringe at that and laugh if a tank with those stats wanted to tank a kara.


I think I was round 12k unbuffed by the time we got to him, but even then it was a case of flasking up and chugging Ironshield pots like they were going out of fashion.


Yep, Iron Shield pots eaten like candy, max raid buffs, scrolls if needed, stam food. The funny thing was, I rarely ever died in that encounter. The things that caused us to wipe were infernals almost every time. You would think with that low amount of HP, I would have died a lot to prince, but I was usually the last to die unless it was a case of the healers getting separated from me due to an infernal.
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Postby lostsouls » Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:39 am

Okay let me say this for the cheap seats....You cannot tank heroics without 12k in health and over 200 spell damage, first of all to the person who said they were doing heroics with 9k health, that had to be way before heroics became popular, maybe 8-12 months ago, or ur guild was running u through them and u werent tanking it. So stop with the " I tanked heroics with 9k" stuff. Now for defense wise u really shouldnt even attempt to do heroics with out 490 defense cause anything less ur healer will cry in pain. But heroics are not for gearing for kara runs. Heroics are for toons not in guilds and that dont run 25 mans for gear.
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Postby Arcand » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:04 pm

I think I started at around 10.8k health and 170-something spell damage. It's a matter of using all your CC resources, having well-focused damage (consistent and accurate use of target marks is invaluable here)...and having a group with the right psychology for progression content - namely, that you're going to wipe - and when you do, run back, think about things you're going to do better this time and try again.

Making some arbitrary proclamation about minimum stat levels when you're talking about something as complex as a five-person group in an instance strikes me as a bad idea; I suggest that we avoid it.
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:52 pm

Indeed. One major difference between now and a year ago is that now people pretty much assume that if they've got a Pally tank they'll be using little to no CC. Back then, Pally tanks had to use nearly as much CC as Warriors/Druids because our gear was worse, the mobs hit harder, and our HP pools were tiny. It could be done and was done quite well, it just didn't look much like the lolconsecrate and AoE Tankadins heroic runs you so often see now. Play more conservatively and you'd be surprised how much you can do with lesser gear.
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Postby Kelaan » Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:55 pm

Arcand wrote: a newcomer is going to get a badly skewed impression of the difficulty of these heroics and then wonder what the hell happened when they get annihilated on their first attempt - so I'm making a serious effort to put myself in the boots of a tank with 10.6k health, 11k armor, backed up by a priest with 1060 +heal and three DPSers somewhere in the 500-600dps range. :)


Having been there very very recently, I can certainly say that at that level of gear, it's very very stressful. I'd watch my HP fluctuate like crazy -- and many times I'd blow cooldowns (potions, healthstone, LOH) before a heal landed out of fear that it wouldn't land in time.

The thing is, though -- you really REALLY need to know the pulls before doing it on heroic, and even then you can crash and burn. And, it's then hard until you learn how that particular heroic works, too. Everyone talks about how Durnholde is "easy mode" now -- maybe it is, by comparison, but damn it was hardwhen I tried it a week or so back. Trash and the first boss were easy, but we died on the gauntlet with Thrall about eight times. :-( Several times it was because I screwed up and did things like run too far over the bridge, or aggro things too early. I don't think I've felt like that much of a failure in a long time. :-(

Slave pens, by comparison, was a walk in the park. :) Even Steamvault was easier (same healer, etc) -- probably because I know that place so much better, and there's less chances for a tank to screw up and LOS his healer (doh). (-:
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