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@Experienced Raid Leaders

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@Experienced Raid Leaders

Postby honorshammer » Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:20 pm

I need help.

[Background]
Our Raid Leader has left the game. The GM has asked me to take over Raid Leader.

Our old raid leader used a system where people got spots based on how many raids they atteneded. If Mage#1 and Mage#2 both wanted to go and we only had one more spot, then if Mage#1 had gone to 6 raids and Mage#2 had gone to 3, Mage#2 would go.

It lead to some very undergeared/underskilled groups. One week we'd get 4 bosses down, the next week we'd only get 1.

[/Background]

[Question]

How do most guilds determine who gets the Raid invites, and who gets left out.

I'm looking for a system that is easy to run, easy to explain, and ensure's quality groups that can actually progress.

[/End Question]
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Postby Mortehl » Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:23 pm

A predefined rotation is the ONLY way you can do this fairly.

The goal here isn't to favor one person or another for ANY reason.

Set a rotation where people rotate by day. If after a while someone is missing their turn too often, remove them from the raiding team. There'll be exceptions of course and you don't need to turn it into a "job"; however a fair rotation will ensure your guild's future survivability.
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Postby Lore » Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:29 pm

Really depends on the approach you want to take, which depends on the guild. It's really hard to find solid people that are going to show up every night, so rotating people around as much as possible is important unless you have that luxury. At the same time though, you want to kill bosses, and people that show up every single night and play well should probably be in the raid, because they're the ones that are going to make stuff die.

Basically, I let people guarantee their own raid spot by being solid, consistent, and prepared every night. The people who are not, I rotate in and out when necessary. Talking to people is also commonly overlooked, often I can get a volunteer or two to sit out if I just go "Okay, I've got too many tanks tonight, who's cool with sitting?"
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Re: @Experienced Raid Leaders

Postby Thels » Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:28 pm

Honorshammer wrote:Our old raid leader used a system where people got spots based on how many raids they atteneded. If Mage#1 and Mage#2 both wanted to go and we only had one more spot, then if Mage#1 had gone to 6 raids and Mage#2 had gone to 3, Mage#2 would go.


Hmm. Say Mage#1 is putting in all his efford and is available and ready every evening to help the guild. Mage#2 is not trying so hard, and when his friends ask him to come drink a beer with them, you won't see him on.

Due to the above events, Mage#2 only hopped online 3 times in the last week, while Mage #1 was always ready.

Following your system, Mage#2 deserves the raid slot. Ehh???
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Postby Cames » Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:36 pm

Depends on what your guild is about and the reasons that one mage was only in raid 3 times.

IF you are a guild building to 25 mans, then eventually Kara raids are about gearing everyone and you should get a list from folks of what they need from what bosses.

For 25 man runs, you should take the A team until a boss is on farm status. Taking undergeared/inexperienced people leads to large repair bills and much frustration.

Does your guild have an active/inactive policy? In the more hardcore guilds that I have been in 3 day a week attendance would have gotten somebody on the inactive list.

I agree with the volunteer list thing. I am one of several people who have characters/skills that require me to be in attendance A LOT. I will take a day off when I can get it.
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Re: @Experienced Raid Leaders

Postby honorshammer » Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:38 pm

Thels wrote:
Honorshammer wrote:Our old raid leader used a system where people got spots based on how many raids they atteneded. If Mage#1 and Mage#2 both wanted to go and we only had one more spot, then if Mage#1 had gone to 6 raids and Mage#2 had gone to 3, Mage#2 would go.


Hmm. Say Mage#1 is putting in all his efford and is available and ready every evening to help the guild. Mage#2 is not trying so hard, and when his friends ask him to come drink a beer with them, you won't see him on.

Due to the above events, Mage#2 only hopped online 3 times in the last week, while Mage #1 was always ready.

Following your system, Mage#2 deserves the raid slot. Ehh???


That was EXACTLY the way the old system worked. I've been given the power to change it.

I want to come up with a fair system that rewards good players without having people think "Oh, I'll never get an invite"

I can try Lore's way of asking who will sit, but I know that will only work for so long until there's than uncomfortable silence.
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Postby Vanifae » Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:43 pm

I am the current raid leader for my guild and I currently tend to focus on what I consider the core of the raid, tanks and healers. Tanks we have in abundance, myself being the main tank, and then four different warriors who are not adverse to going protection for the raid.

Healers is always spotty and I rarely have to rotate them like I do my warriors, you only ever need at most two tanks, so any extra warriors are just DPS. But I try to use a system where I get people in for bosses that they actually need loot from if at all possible, but at the end of the day I communicate with my guild on exactly what I am doing if the raid is taking longer to form as I juggle people and spots for the best raid performance and success; while also balancing with making sure we don’t always take the same people.

Basing it on how many times you have gone can work, but I tend to base it on, what this person needs, their experience level, and their reliability. People want consistency and if you go from killing four bosses to one can prove bad for morale. You don’t want to sacrifice raid performance for the sake of getting everyone in, sometimes in the name of progression you need to bring your best cards to the table, and then let your weaker players ride in on the easier encounters.

Until they become stronger or the raid itself is strong enough to carry weaker players through tougher encounters.
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Postby Lore » Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:44 pm

You may be overcomplicating things. Giving people a system to earn invites can easily just turn into a way for them to complain when they don't get them. Here's what I do:

1) I look to see who all is online
2) When it's time for invites, I invite the people I want in the raid

That's it. People who don't get invited, I just tell them "Sorry, I don't have a spot for you tonight." If I have a bunch of people I want in and I can't invite them all, then I do the asking if anyone can sit thing.
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Postby Vanifae » Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:45 pm

Lore wrote:You may be overcomplicating things. Giving people a system to earn invites can easily just turn into a way for them to complain when they don't get them. Here's what I do:

1) I look to see who all is online
2) When it's time for invites, I invite the people I want in the raid

That's it. People who don't get invited, I just tell them "Sorry, I don't have a spot for you tonight." If I have a bunch of people I want in and I can't invite them all, then I do the asking if anyone can sit thing.

Yeah earning spots is very bad.

Start with what you got and build from there.

A good basis is two tanks, three healers, and the rest DPS for Karazhan, as you get really geared you can drop a healer for more DPS or a DPS/Hybrid.
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Postby Thels » Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:46 pm

What you need to check is how often people are available, not just how often they are in the raid.

If in the above example, Mage#2 was also there every day, he just didn't get a raid spot, then Mage#2 should get it, unless there's other reasons playing into it (Mage#1 greatly outgears Mage#2, Mage#2 didn't buy Polymorph from the class trainer, etc...).
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Postby Joanadark » Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:50 pm

Attendance should determine who gets loot.

Promptness and Preparedness should determine who gets Raid Invites.

P.P.P.; Prompt+Prepared=Priority
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Postby pyrotechniq » Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:55 pm

We do it on attendance basis kinda like what you said with mage #1 and #2 for stuff thats been on farm for 2 weeks. We call it normal rotation. Also you are not allowed to be rotated if you were rotated the night b4. For stuff that is not on farm or just recently on farm we do "reverse rotation". Meaning that Mage #1 would attend instead of #2.

This gives us a system where we have our best or most experienced on harder content but also allows us to keep a deeper roster by giving players who don't raid quite as much more opportunity on farmed stuff.

It works for us but I'm sure rotations depend a lot on the play styles of the peeps in your guild. Hard to cater to them all.
Last edited by pyrotechniq on Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Joanadark » Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:02 pm

Mage#2 didn't buy Polymorph from the class trainer, etc..


LOL

that reminded me of a Paladin I had back in the BWL days who refused to train Greater Blessing of Light, and only had the 45 Rank of Fire Resistance Aura.
It was so incredibly frustrating because I'd have to waste some other Paladin who'd speced into an improved buff of something like Kings or Sanctuary to do Greater Light instead, since Light took priority.

After about three occurances of this, I simply refused to invite him to the raids. He shrugged and went back to pvping.


Always found that incredible that someone would simply NOT BUY skills, no matter how useless.
I was very generous with people too. My raids had a dedicated ret paladin and a dedicated prot paladin (me) long before the talent trees were even expanded.
We had three raiding druids, and one was feral and another moonkin.
We had three raiding priests and one was shadow.
We cultivated a hemo rogue, an arms warrior, a demonology warlock, and a survival hunter.
Our retadin got kitted out with a Nightfall before we even stopped farming MC.
And our raids were always the better for it, and I also think my raiders came away as more skilled and cooperative players for it.

We were notorious for our off-specs, my guild.
In my observation, people tend to simply play a lot better when you let them do what they enjoy, regardless of the on-paper expectations.

The thing is, you could do that with a raid of 40 people. 40 people could tolerate the loss of potential pure-class DPS or healing while benefiting even more from the utility brought.
I think taking 15 raid slots away did more to hurt the desireability of off-specs than any other factor.
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Postby Maranus » Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:36 pm

The only good way to run a raid is to do invites COMPLETELY subjectively. You need to field a raid with a consistent 10(or 25) people, who are competent and willing to put the extra effort in in order to succeed.

For 10 man raids, just talk to your choice 9 players and try to get a time when everyone can raid, then do it. Make sure if someone can't make it one day/week/whatever, make sure they contact to so you know to make sure you have a replacement for them.

For 25 mans, put on the auto inviter and have everyone and their mother whisper for an invite. Say in /RW something along the lines of "WE HAVE TOO MANY PEOPLE, IF I KICK YOU, NO CRYING." Commence the culling.
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Postby Igrado » Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:28 am

Mage#2 didn't buy Polymorph from the class trainer, etc...)


LOL. <3 Thels
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