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Postby agnara » Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:59 pm

Guillex wrote:
Ghort wrote:If I remember correctly, you just need 480 defense to be uncritable against a level 72 mob, which is the highest you should be seeing in the heroics... and remember when running them, your building a set for heroics and a set for raids - keep the 480 defense on heroic set and max out stam :D


Sigh...

485 for normal instances.

490 for heroics. K? K.


It's 485 for both normal instances and heroics. in what heroic do you find bosslvl mobs?
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Postby Ghort » Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:00 pm

Guillex wrote:
Ghort wrote:If I remember correctly, you just need 480 defense to be uncritable against a level 72 mob, which is the highest you should be seeing in the heroics... and remember when running them, your building a set for heroics and a set for raids - keep the 480 defense on heroic set and max out stam :D


Sigh...

485 for normal instances.

490 for heroics. K? K.


So i researched this a little bit due to I'm way too bored at work.

480 was wrong, but i keep seeing 485 pop up in various threads for max defense needed to be uncrushable.

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... ce+heroics last post,

http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... php?t=6750 - Dorvan states
Dorvan wrote:Well, first of all if your goal is to get into heroic as soon as possible you only need 485 defense, not 490. Secondly, that's achievable with only quest rewards, it's not the hardest benchmark out there. Thirdly yes, avoidance makes a big difference even in heroic. Fourthly, stacking resilience maybe be more efficient than defense for pure crit reduction and stacking dodge may be more efficient for pure avoidance than stacking defense rating (barely), but stacking defense is more efficient than stacking resilience + dodge for achieving both. Stack resilience instead of defense and you're going to have one squishy tank. I agree that the information about what resilience does should be readily available, but it would be remiss not to acknowledge it's drawbacks and proper (limited) role in tank gearing.


So yes, I admit i was wrong on that 480 - work gets kinda distracting, makes me not really pay attention to what I'm saying as much since its all up and down, few seconds to spare where ever I happen to be assigned at the moment... But 485 defense, stack stamina. Avoidance also if the right pieces drop for ya

Mind you, I dont follow my own advice as well since I have been doing alot of the instances in my raiding gear, cept for a shield switch out... but oh well
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Postby jere » Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:16 pm

Base defense at level 70 is 350.

lvl 70 Mobs have 5% chance to crit you - 125 def skill is needed to overcome this (total of 475). For each level above this, mobs gain 0.2% chance to crit (5 def skill per level), so:

lvl 70 mobs: 475
lvl 71 mobs: 480
lvl 72 mobs: 485
lvl 73 mobs: 490

Aside from the avoidance it gives, def has no direct effect on making you uncrushable, it attacks uncrittable. Mobs in heroics are lvl 72 at the most, so 485 is as high as you need with few exceptions (the malicious instructors in heroic Shadowlabs can crit you when they put that debuff on you for example).
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Postby Boreen » Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:39 pm

Gimorth wrote:
VikrumthePally wrote:Again guys not to be rude, but I saw this coming. Being uncrittable what are decent hp/armor numbers to start doing heroics?


The simple answer is 12K HP/AC is fine for some of the easier heroics. Keep in mind, though, that you will likely need to CC heavily if your healer is at about the same level of gear (or is used to healing people who greatly outgear the place).

Things to expect:

1) PUGs will generally think that you do not have enough HP, regardless of how much pure avoidance you have.

2) Your first badges will be the HARDEST BADGES YOU WILL EVER EARN.

3) You'll likely want to spend your first 15 badges on the libram. If you are not planning on running Kara any time soon, try to fight the urge.

I would recommend that you run Mech early and often. I would consider it to be the easiest heroic by far. I would avoid the Hellfire instances, as those ones are real bastards in terms of HP expectations.

Finally, I would avoid using the word "Heroics" and the word "Uncrushable" in the same sentence. It generally sends the message that you don't know what you're talking about and that you are just using buzzwords to hide ignorance. That generally gets your post on a "YOU DON'T NEED/WANT UNCRSUH FOR HEROICS" tangent. Obviously (by this quoted post) that's not where you wanted to go.


As a followup question to the #3 above. As I understand you are saying to not get the Libram if you are not going to be doing Kara anytime soon. Is there a piece you do recommend going for first or just find the best upgrade for your gear? (Like the Chest or Legs)
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Postby Gimorth » Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:50 pm

I'm pretty sure the first real piece of badge gear I picked up was the 2.3 chest. At 75 badges, it's not a fast get, but it's so nice that it really is worth the wait. (I grabbed the libram only to find out pretty early on that the extra BR wasn't as huge a deal as I thought when not tanking bosses.)

KoT legs do a darn fine job for early heroics, that I think one is generally OK w/o badge legs for a while.

It really all depends on your drops. My chest piece was a piece of crap for a while, so the upgrade to the 2.3 was a no-brainer. If, however, you are able to get D3 shoulders and you are using the D3 chest for the set bonus, you might be able to hold off on the chest and grab the legs or something.

I found that the 2.3 chest was such a huge upgrade for me persoanlly, that every badge after picking it up is about half as hard as the ones before.
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Postby Mishdorf » Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:15 pm

Gimorth wrote:I'm pretty sure the first real piece of badge gear I picked up was the 2.3 chest. At 75 badges, it's not a fast get, but it's so nice that it really is worth the wait. (I grabbed the libram only to find out pretty early on that the extra BR wasn't as huge a deal as I thought when not tanking bosses.)

KoT legs do a darn fine job for early heroics, that I think one is generally OK w/o badge legs for a while.

It really all depends on your drops. My chest piece was a piece of crap for a while, so the upgrade to the 2.3 was a no-brainer. If, however, you are able to get D3 shoulders and you are using the D3 chest for the set bonus, you might be able to hold off on the chest and grab the legs or something.

I found that the 2.3 chest was such a huge upgrade for me persoanlly, that every badge after picking it up is about half as hard as the ones before.


QFT

Heroics were quite difficult until I mustered up the 90 badges I needed for the libram and the chest (I got the libram first). Once I got the chest heroics became a LOT easier.

To gear up for heroics, the simplest method is to RUN STEAMVAULTS LIKE IT'S THE ONLY THING TO DO IN WOW. There are so many useful tanking drops in here and from CE rep - particularly from the final boss.

Gauntlets of the bold, steam hinge necklace, chestplate of righteousness, devilshark and the rep neck are ALL ridiculously good for using to gear up, and some will last you for an absolute age (steam-hinged neck and devilshark are the two that spring to mind - though the neck only for BV sets).
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Postby Barathorn » Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:08 am

agnara wrote:
Guillex wrote:
Ghort wrote:If I remember correctly, you just need 480 defense to be uncritable against a level 72 mob, which is the highest you should be seeing in the heroics... and remember when running them, your building a set for heroics and a set for raids - keep the 480 defense on heroic set and max out stam :D


Sigh...

485 for normal instances.

490 for heroics. K? K.


It's 485 for both normal instances and heroics. in what heroic do you find bosslvl mobs?


I think Guillex was tired and what he meant to say was 485 for heroics and 490 for karazhan.
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Postby VikrumthePally » Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:20 am

You guys are all great. Thanks for all the input!
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Postby Worldie » Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:03 am

The people saying about the 12k hp prerequisite... i wonder what they would have told me when i was tanking heroics with 9k <.<
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Postby guillex » Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:22 am

Barathorn wrote:
agnara wrote:
Guillex wrote:
Ghort wrote:If I remember correctly, you just need 480 defense to be uncritable against a level 72 mob, which is the highest you should be seeing in the heroics... and remember when running them, your building a set for heroics and a set for raids - keep the 480 defense on heroic set and max out stam :D


Sigh...

485 for normal instances.

490 for heroics. K? K.


It's 485 for both normal instances and heroics. in what heroic do you find bosslvl mobs?


I think Guillex was tired and what he meant to say was 485 for heroics and 490 for karazhan.


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Postby jere » Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:26 am

Worldie wrote:The people saying about the 12k hp prerequisite... i wonder what they would have told me when i was tanking heroics with 9k <.<


lol, yep I was thinking the same thing. These post 2.3 pallies are spoiled :P
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Postby Lookit » Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:29 am

dmok wrote: But you're supposed to be gearing up FOR kara by DOING heroics, not the other way around.


This is less so for tanks. The simple fact is that a heroic is 1 tank and 1 healer. Basically, the entire run rests upon the shoulders of those two people.

But in Kara, an undergeared tank can OT just fine, and with 2-3 healers it's much easier to stay alive. A lot of people find it easier to OT Kara for a bit and get a few epics before heading to a heroic.

Basically, a tank can be carried through lower Kara, but can't be carried through a heroic. DPS, of course, can be carried through anything and everything up to Brut :P
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Postby dmok » Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:01 am

Lookit wrote:
dmok wrote: But you're supposed to be gearing up FOR kara by DOING heroics, not the other way around.


This is less so for tanks. The simple fact is that a heroic is 1 tank and 1 healer. Basically, the entire run rests upon the shoulders of those two people.

But in Kara, an undergeared tank can OT just fine, and with 2-3 healers it's much easier to stay alive. A lot of people find it easier to OT Kara for a bit and get a few epics before heading to a heroic.

While true if you have a geared MT .. what happens if you do not? Of course you can even get pulled through Gruul/Mag as an OT without even doing kara if your guild is progressed enough. But if people are looking to you as the MT and you have not yet started kara, where do you turn? Heroics. Therefore normal -> heroics -> kara
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Postby Arcand » Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:26 pm

Worldie wrote:The people saying about the 12k hp prerequisite... i wonder what they would have told me when i was tanking heroics with 9k <.<


I think I would have told you...

...roll with heavy CC and an overgeared healer, if you can find one.
...bring super healing potions and don't hesitate to use 'em.
...if your healer isn't a superbeing and if your DPSers aren't superbeings, avoid Underbog, Blood Furnace and Shattered Halls.
...and I think you're going to die whenever there's bad luck, let's take a look at your gear and figure out where you can pack on some more meat in normal 5-mans.
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Postby Kelaan » Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:57 pm

Arcand wrote:I was a pretty solid Karazhan tank* in dungeon blues and felsteel, but with that gear in heroics I was constantly in fear of my life, had to roll with dominating amounts of CC and wiped periodically.


I think this is the level of intended difficulty for starting heroics. It's a challenge. Healers, CC, tanks all need to be in top form, and pulling out all the stops. Once you get some more gear, now (via crafting, pvp, badges), it gets easier, but I don't know that they really are happy with it being "free badges" for people who don't yet outgear it.

Karazhan is (IMO) meant to be tanked by someone who's been there all through the process of learning it, probably tanking each boss a couple times, and with probably 6-8 kills in on each of the early bosses -- meaning that by the time your raid was at Prince, you'd likely have bracers/gloves/trinket/etc (or at least SOME of those).

Now that we can PUG it, and most people are either alts of those who already know fights, or are well geared from arena, we as tanks still need to work on gearing up. (I know, preaching tothe choir.) I don't think that's bad, necessarily, but I'm pretty sure Blizzard doesn't see that as broken.
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