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I know it's been done before.

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I know it's been done before.

Postby VikrumthePally » Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:06 am

Bored at work. Working with that thing where you can put gear in to see what it will do for your stats.

Just strait to the point. I am only curious about these 2 factors.

Hp/armor.

is 12k for each (with zero buffs from me or anyone) enough to tank first few heroics with a competent group? (being uncrit and uncrush) and yes i know crush doesn't matter in heroics.

Thanks.
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Postby dmok » Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:15 am

I still dont know why people are insistant that 12k health is required for heroics. at 12k health, it means you've gotten badge gear and some stuff from Kara. But you're supposed to be gearing up FOR kara by DOING heroics, not the other way around. I seem to remember wowwiki saying 10k HP was enough to start on Kara, so I dont it being an issue for heroics. being uncrushable, you should have more than enough gear to get you through heroics.
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Postby VikrumthePally » Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:20 am

I have no idea what anyone has said as a stated figure. I was just playing with that sandbox thingy and plugging in gear and enchants I knew I had a pretty good shot at getting.

When I got done it said 12k armor, 12k health. So that is why I was asking is that enough to run the first few heroics.

Thanks for the reply though.
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Postby brimstoner » Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:32 am

There was a guy on here who said he wouldnt even run heroics unless the tank had 12k hp and 14k armor. I ran heroic Mech last night with just about those stats and we still got beat up pretty bad. But overall I held aggro great, so I think it was a DPS issue. I am 490 Def, but not uncrushable since I know that doesnt even matter for heroics, but I figured that should have been plenty good.
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Postby VikrumthePally » Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:46 am

Can I get a link to your armory please?
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Postby Ghort » Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:57 am

If I remember correctly, you just need 480 defense to be uncritable against a level 72 mob, which is the highest you should be seeing in the heroics... and remember when running them, your building a set for heroics and a set for raids - keep the 480 defense on heroic set and max out stam :D
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Postby Arcand » Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:01 pm

dmok wrote:But you're supposed to be gearing up FOR kara by DOING heroics, not the other way around. I seem to remember wowwiki saying 10k HP was enough to start on Kara, so I dont it being an issue for heroics.


This would make sense, but in my experience that ain't how it is.

I was a pretty solid Karazhan tank* in dungeon blues and felsteel, but with that gear in heroics I was constantly in fear of my life, had to roll with dominating amounts of CC and wiped periodically.


* I'm talking about the front half. We got stuck for a long time on Curator and by the time I saw past that I was wearing 300+ badges of rock-hard overgear.
Last edited by Arcand on Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby guillex » Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:05 pm

Ghort wrote:If I remember correctly, you just need 480 defense to be uncritable against a level 72 mob, which is the highest you should be seeing in the heroics... and remember when running them, your building a set for heroics and a set for raids - keep the 480 defense on heroic set and max out stam :D


Sigh...

485 for normal instances.

490 for heroics. K? K.
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Postby dmok » Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:07 pm

Arcand wrote:This would make sense, but in my experience that ain't how it is.

I was a pretty solid Karazhan tank in dungeon blues and felsteel, but with that gear in heroics I was constantly in fear of my life, had to roll with dominating amounts of CC and wiped periodically.

My guild specifically ran 2 "teams" of 5 through heroics for a month or so before we started in on Kara way back in the day, and it seemed to work out well. Sure, it was hard at first, but just like Kara once you learn the pulls and learn HOW to do the instance it gets much easier.

case and point is the week or so after 2.4 hit. MgT was being run by EVERYONE and their mother, and not many were successful and wiped many, many times on a normal instance. Fast forward to now, and those that spent those first few weeks in there learning the pulls have a much easier time with it. Not because they have significantly better gear than they did then (maybe a new badge item or 2, nothing gamebreaking), but because they learned how to deal with each pull, each boss, and how to overcome it.

[edit]
* I'm talking about the front half. We got stuck for a long time on Curator and by the time I saw past that I was wearing 300+ badges of rock-hard overgear.

We were stuck on Curator for about a week, so maybe doing the heroics just gave us the edge to make it past sooner? (this was way back before kara was dropping badges)
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Postby VikrumthePally » Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:14 pm

Again guys not to be rude, but I saw this coming. Being uncrittable what are decent hp/armor numbers to start doing heroics?
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Postby Gimorth » Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:28 pm

VikrumthePally wrote:Again guys not to be rude, but I saw this coming. Being uncrittable what are decent hp/armor numbers to start doing heroics?


The simple answer is 12K HP/AC is fine for some of the easier heroics. Keep in mind, though, that you will likely need to CC heavily if your healer is at about the same level of gear (or is used to healing people who greatly outgear the place).

Things to expect:

1) PUGs will generally think that you do not have enough HP, regardless of how much pure avoidance you have.

2) Your first badges will be the HARDEST BADGES YOU WILL EVER EARN.

3) You'll likely want to spend your first 15 badges on the libram. If you are not planning on running Kara any time soon, try to fight the urge.

I would recommend that you run Mech early and often. I would consider it to be the easiest heroic by far. I would avoid the Hellfire instances, as those ones are real bastards in terms of HP expectations.

Finally, I would avoid using the word "Heroics" and the word "Uncrushable" in the same sentence. It generally sends the message that you don't know what you're talking about and that you are just using buzzwords to hide ignorance. That generally gets your post on a "YOU DON'T NEED/WANT UNCRSUH FOR HEROICS" tangent. Obviously (by this quoted post) that's not where you wanted to go.
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Postby VikrumthePally » Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:31 pm

Ty very much Gimorth. Exactly the info I was looking for!
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Postby sunburst » Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:45 pm

I've started heroic with exactly 12K HP and armor, in full blue gear. My very first heroics were: Mech, Ramparts and MgT - went pretty smooth (I must say PuGs were quite competent). I dont recommend Mech as a starter, those robots are nasty! Coilfang is a total breeze on a contrary. Friendly warning: you'll face most problems with people's attitude, not mobs, so get a bunch of guildies if you can or develop a thick skin :D
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Postby Arcand » Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:49 pm

Gimorth wrote:I would recommend that you run Mech early and often. I would consider it to be the easiest heroic by far. I would avoid the Hellfire instances, as those ones are real bastards in terms of HP expectations.


Truth.

The heroic things which are really harsh on the tank, in no particular order:

Shadow Labyrinth Murmur hyper-sucks on heroic. Run out to avoid party-wiping AoE #1, then run back in to avoid taking too many ticks from party-wiping AoE #2.

Caverns of Time - Durnholde Even post-nerf, the first boss hits kinda hard. It's a simple fight, at least.

Underbog Two bog giants right before the first boss. Not pleasant.

Blood Furnace The orc-a-thon before boss #2 will go pretty well for you, until you get stunned and the incoming damage suddenly doubles. Felguard Annihilators can rough you up pretty good too.

Hellfire Ramparts Some of them have Mortal Strike, and some of them hit fairly hard and stun.

Shattered Halls The gladiators training off in the side pits are pretty traumatic. They can be skipped if absolutely nothing goes wrong.

Mechanar Charged Fist.

The last four can be countered by CC and/or interrupts, which is why you'll sometimes see them recommended for new folks. If you don't have the CC and/or interrupts, I suggest you go for a heroic that isn't on this list...
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Postby Gimorth » Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:56 pm

sunburst wrote:I've started heroic with exactly 12K HP and armor, in full blue gear. My very first heroics were: Mech, Ramparts and MgT - went pretty smooth (I must say PuGs were quite competent). I dont recommend Mech as a starter, those robots are nasty! Coilfang is a total breeze on a contrary. Friendly warning: you'll face most problems with people's attitude, not mobs, so get a bunch of guildies if you can or develop a thick skin :D


It's quite funny how different people's opinions can be in this regard.

I practically LIVED in Heroic Mech in the first few weeks of farming. I'll take one hard mob (whose power is entirely negated by a good rogue) every 3-4 pulls over group after group of difficult trash. Even after picking up a few badge epics, I had a bear of a time in Heroic Ramps.

The Coilfang instances can run the gamut. I think that they can be kinda tough at the low end of the gear spectrum (even SP has some nasty 5 pulls) but become bread and butter instances as you gear up. These ones are the easiest to remember with rose-colored glasses as they become SO EASY once you reach a certain point.
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