Tanking weapons in Sunwell

Kalecgos, Brutallus, Felmyst, M'uru, Entropius, Kil'jaeden

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Postby Dragonzbane » Thu May 29, 2008 11:27 am

I am completely against any type of loot restrictions.
All they do is breed contempt and disillusionment.

As guild leaders you should have enough faith in your members to trust that they make the right decisions regarding doing what's best for the guild.

That said, I took the first Tempest of Chaos that dropped because it was a substantial upgrade from my S2 gavel.
I also made a post on the guild forums ahead of time stating that it's was my intention to take A ToC whenever I had high enough DKP to win it. There were a couple people who were slightly unhappy but the overall majority of the guild was supportive including ALL of the locks and most of the mages. The biggest detractor oddly enough was a resto shaman though he was a big "old-school" bleeding edge raider.


On the other hand:
I've passed on all of the Supremus rings and RoS necks to Warriors and Druids because I thought they would get more use from them.

I passed on all of Myrmidon's Tread's until all the warriors prot & DPS had them. I took mine and then Tidestompers dropped the next week, lol.

I did the same thing with Girdles of Stability but unfortunately neither those or a Girdle of Mighty Resolve has dropped since the DPS warrior got his belt and I'm stuck with T5 level belts.

I passed the first Bulwark of Azinoth to a Warrior and then the first Kaz's Heart to the other warrior, those have been the only tanking shields to drop (and they were in that order).

I also passed the first Faceplate to a warrior.

Passed the first T6 bracers to a Priest so she could get her 4 piece bonus.

Passed several T6 helms and all of the T6 legs.
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Postby Splug » Thu May 29, 2008 12:08 pm

For sake of clarification: I don't by any means think that the call we're arguing about was "the right one." If you look at this specific case, was there a poor allocation of the item? Yes - that's not what any of us are arguing. My point is just that a logical "general case" can lead to exception cases being missed, and this could well be one of them. A system driven by an ideal where the class who can best utilize an item receives priority on the item could produce this scenario. This would require a fairly extreme version of that view, but it's in the same vein as something that does make sense. It all stems from spellcrit being all-but-wasted itemization for a prot paladin, whereas the warlock would get full benefit from it. It's not nearly as big a difference as hunter melee weapons or warrior ranged weapons, but it is a disparity that allows one player to reap a larger benefit from it than the other.

If the rules are written such that class priority is more important than seniority, then that has nothing to do with disrespect: rules were written and agreed to, and now they are being enforced. I don't necesarily agree with that rule being set to this extreme, but I could imagine some people would - and in that case, it has nothing to do with class/player disrespect, just an execution of the rules.

(I should also probably mention that I come from a guild with an 8-12 week trial process... so some of our "tryouts" have made fairly significant contributions to the guild before ever being promoted to veteran member status. Two-month-old tryouts make for some fuzz in the terminology.)

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Postby Splug » Thu May 29, 2008 12:16 pm

Dragonzbane wrote:I am completely against any type of loot restrictions.
All they do is breed contempt and disillusionment.
That's a logical standpoint and I don't fault you for it. All I'm saying is that some people do follow the prioritization mentality, and if those are the rules they've posted, then bailing when posted rules get enforced is a poor show. I don't know if this was a last-second special case enfocement, or a general-case enforcement when a special case should have been made. In the former, I agree with you that it's pretty damn shady on the part of the guild and a bit of a reaction by the player is fair game: how much, I don't know. In the latter, the most I could justify a player doing is appealing to get it fixed for next time.

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Postby Dragonzbane » Thu May 29, 2008 1:50 pm

Splug wrote:
Dragonzbane wrote:I am completely against any type of loot restrictions.
All they do is breed contempt and disillusionment.
I don't know if this was a last-second special case enfocement, or a general-case enforcement when a special case should have been made. In the former, I agree with you that it's pretty damn shady on the part of the guild and a bit of a reaction by the player is fair game: how much, I don't know. In the latter, the most I could justify a player doing is appealing to get it fixed for next time.

-Splug


True.
I guess that discussing his specific "loot" rules is silly since I don't actually know them. I completely agree, if it is something that was agreed upon when joining the guild then there's really not much in the way of a valid complaint.

As far as Spell Crit being unless that's an overstatement because it has a small benefit and more benefit than the DPS of the weapon does for a Mage or Lock. Of course I had to dust that agrument off from my days on the Bliz forums.

I still remember that huge 20-30 page war I got involve in on the mage forums about a Holy Paladin bidding on the Azuresong Mageblade. Back then when I was in heal mode, was trying to get as much crit as possible and that's way before Crit was the "En Vogue" Paladin healing stat. Never did get one though since I raided as Ret and would have only used it part time.

Spirit = useless
Spell Haste = useless
Spell Crit = limited use
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Postby Splug » Thu May 29, 2008 2:11 pm

Yeah, that was my only point - such a loot system could be conceivable, and if that's the system posted, that should be the system used, and that leaving over a system that has been in place (and possibly benefited the player in question at some other point months ago when the tables were turned) is poor form. I think in such a case, this could be seen as a failure by the system that should be addresssed, and hopefully corrected.

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Postby Fastjack » Fri May 30, 2008 3:46 am

I think this discussion is getting closer, to what the real problem is with items like ToC.

Loot/dkp-rules.

As a raidleader since start of wow, i try to add another view for you.
I had the advantage, most guilds and raidleaders do not have.
To improve my dkp-system over time. There are several rules i had to change for more fairness, or to make sure, the right people are getting necessary upgrades. Or to change it as a whole (bid-system). I had to add special restrictions for legendarys etc.
After 3 years of raiding, i can say its really near perfect now, cause
we never ever had any big issues with loot in bc, but had lots of in vanilla.

a failure by the system that should be addresssed, and hopefully corrected.

This is the only advice that makes sense. Go to your guild/raidleaders and talk to them, about improving the dkp-system. The system had been proven as unfair, and is not adressing this problem, so they should change rules.

The bigger problem might be, to convince him/her, to change it.
Cause this is a question of lead. Bad rules let good people leave guilds at times, and thats a really bad thing that should be averted.

To solve this specific thing, i only can tell you, how i adressed it, and why.
Maybe that helps you.

1.)First of all, lets talk about priority systems.
Our priority system indicates that every item can be a mainneed, that is needed for your raidspecc. All others are offneeds.
In the case of ToC actually, it is a main need for tankadines.
Myself has seen ToC dropping the first time, i bid the most dkp, and got it over the mages and warlocks (didnt drop since then).
Guess what? There was no big deal about it. A warlock mate of mine had some problem with it, and talked to me about it (he has prio need like me), cause he could not follow my decision, so i told him why i made it, and it was fine. If its needed to clarify something, than do it.

If the people know how a system is running and why it is this way, then there wont be problems about items like this, that make other guilds struggle. I simply feel very sorry for other protadines, that dont have the rule backup for this, and are not getting the reward for their hard work.
And i know lots of those. If you have the highest dkp, you should get it as it is a mainneed.

2.)People, that are in for the first time, have a testday. So on their very first day, they have no need on _any_ item, that drops. Even Offneeds are prevered over them. Might turn out, that they get some loot, but then really nobody needs it. (In case of new tanks that should be geared up, there might be exceptions. same in trialtime)

This rule was made, cause we had people over the last year, that spent one day, took the loot, and were never seen (may be kicked out for poor performance/behavior or by themselves not showing up after this day). When raidmembers had seen an rare random item dropping, and had to pass it to someone that might be elsewhere after this day.

3.)Trialtime: Lasts 3 weeks in our case, but every guild/raid has its own times here. In the trialtime people get mainneed over offneeds, but do not get their own mainneed over another mainneed of a fullmember. This rule should protect fullmembers, to not have to pass on items they waited for a long time to trials, even if they dont have much dkp. On another note, the best thing for the raid is, if a proven person gets an upgrade.

This is simply, cause anyone new to a raid, should first attest, that he is worth the rewards. Too many ppl turn out as not reliable, and therefore do not stay for a long time. And trials get dkp for all the time they invest, so they can spend it, when they are fullmembers. So no real disadvantage on their side either.

Core-players need some backup from rules sometimes, cause those are the ones, that push your guild/raid forward all the time, and rewards address this. So this should be reflected by your raids rules.

I inform every new trialmember to this rules (i do the recruitings normally), bevore they start, and they have to agree, to get their testday.
And i tell them why we do it this way. Thats important.

Hope that this may help someone on their discussion with their raidleaders, to bring up new concepts or arguments.

Over and out,
Lichtritter [Wrathbringer - EU]
Tankadin for life!
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Postby Katamai » Fri May 30, 2008 6:39 am

Fastjack wrote:I think this discussion is getting closer, to what the real problem is with items like ToC.

Loot/dkp-rules.


It's more of a manifestation of completely flawed paladin itemization than DKP shortcoming.

You don't see druids and warriors fighting for gear with rogues/dps warriors/casters. Their gear is assured while we are forced to stand on the sidelines and fight with locks/mages/spriests for what is as vital to them as it is for us.
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Postby Lucit » Fri May 30, 2008 8:48 am

Katamai wrote:You don't see druids and warriors fighting for gear with rogues/dps warriors/casters.


Actually, you do. The offset pieces are prot warrior<->dps warrior and feral druid<->rogue. Kalecgos drops a rogue offhand / warrior tanking sword.
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Postby Katamai » Fri May 30, 2008 9:01 am

Lucit wrote:
Katamai wrote:You don't see druids and warriors fighting for gear with rogues/dps warriors/casters.


Actually, you do. The offset pieces are prot warrior<->dps warrior and feral druid<->rogue. Kalecgos drops a rogue offhand / warrior tanking sword.

Do you honestly know any rogue using Kalec's sword? Or a warrior using anything other than Unbreakable will/DEB/Brutalizer?
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Postby Lore » Fri May 30, 2008 9:07 am

Loot rules are something you can't really make across-the-board statements about. What's appropriate for one guild could be completely wrong for another.

For example, the casual "just a bunch of friends who get together and kill bosses sometime" crowd, that PVP's just as much as they raid, or brings alts, and so forth is usually best served by minimalistic loot policies. The "main tank" of that guild is quite often someone who respecs frequently, and sometimes is just whoever happens to be willing to spec prot for the evening.

The more serious "everything we do is in the name of progression" guilds tend to benefit the most from the more restrictive policies, because you want to put gear in the hands of the people who are going to use it to kill bosses.

You have to consider the people you're running with as well. If the casual guild mentioned above is so well-knit and selfless that you have trouble getting anyone to loot anything over anyone else, the most you probably need for loot distribution is random roll. However, if you have people who want more reward than just hanging out (which is fine), or have lots of turnover (and thus, new people coming in and rolling on the item that someone else has been lusting after since day 1), something like Suicide Kings or a zero-sum DKP system works great as well. Same goes for the more hardcore approach, in regards to DKP vs loot council.

In short, the best loot system is one that's at the very least been modified to fit your guild. Stealing one verbatim from another guild is risky at best.
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Postby Lore » Fri May 30, 2008 9:11 am

Katamai wrote:
Fastjack wrote:I think this discussion is getting closer, to what the real problem is with items like ToC.

Loot/dkp-rules.


It's more of a manifestation of completely flawed paladin itemization than DKP shortcoming.

You don't see druids and warriors fighting for gear with rogues/dps warriors/casters. Their gear is assured while we are forced to stand on the sidelines and fight with locks/mages/spriests for what is as vital to them as it is for us.


You're talking about 1 slot. I haven't seen any locks, mages, or shadow priests going after spell damage plate lately. We compete with Warriors and Druids for more slots than we do with casters (rings, neck, cloak). If anything, we have more guaranteed gear than Warriors and Druids, since nobody but us wants spell damage plate.

Also, every class competes for armor tokens, and sunwell trade-ins.
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Postby Katamai » Fri May 30, 2008 9:21 am

Lore wrote:You're talking about 1 slot. I haven't seen any locks, mages, or shadow priests going after spell damage plate lately. We compete with Warriors and Druids for more slots than we do with casters (rings, neck, cloak). If anything, we have more guaranteed gear than Warriors and Druids, since nobody but us wants spell damage plate.

Also, every class competes for armor tokens, and sunwell trade-ins.


Except that 1 slot is extremely important for us because it's where we get majority of our threat from.

Oh and what class wants defensive plate besides warriors?
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Postby Lore » Fri May 30, 2008 9:24 am

Katamai wrote:
Lore wrote:You're talking about 1 slot. I haven't seen any locks, mages, or shadow priests going after spell damage plate lately. We compete with Warriors and Druids for more slots than we do with casters (rings, neck, cloak). If anything, we have more guaranteed gear than Warriors and Druids, since nobody but us wants spell damage plate.

Also, every class competes for armor tokens, and sunwell trade-ins.


Except that 1 slot is extremely important for us because it's where we get majority of our threat from.

Oh and what class wants defensive plate besides warriors?


Paladins.
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Postby Lucit » Fri May 30, 2008 9:29 am

Katamai wrote:Do you honestly know any rogue using Kalec's sword?


Yes. And again, other tanks do have to compete with dps warriors and rogues for offset items.
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Postby Katamai » Fri May 30, 2008 10:12 am

Lore wrote:Paladins.


Obviously i fail at paladin tanking because i would never chose a warrior plate item over one with spell dmg. Only exception is when our equivalent is extremely badly itemized but it's kind of missing the point right?

Lucit wrote:Yes. And again, other tanks do have to compete with dps warriors and rogues for offset items.


Any rogue getting DEL over Blade of Savagery or a sword like that is obviously so good at theorycraft that he's able to bend game mechanics and rules.

But apologize for pointing towards a problem. I guess saying "we're fine, warriors have it bad" is the trend nowadays. I guess our itemization is so amazing is that we don't need a proper tanking weapon.
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