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Why not wear two Stam trinkets?

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Re: Why not wear two Stam trinkets?

Postby Snake-Aes » Tue May 27, 2008 8:16 am

Ashmadai wrote:http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Malfurion&n=Ashmadai

There's my armory. I always see people say don't wear two stam trinkets, and I'm wondering why. I'm in a 5/6 SSC 3/4 TK guild, and we're about to start Hyjal. Unbuffed now I am right at 16k HP, with about 53% pure avoidance. My dodge is at almost 24% unbuffed. Fully raid buffed I end up at almost 21k HP and 55% avoidance, 26% of it as dodge.

Should I go with Moroes trinket or the Guardian's Alchemist Stone(which I'm going to craft) over the DMC:V? I'm going to lose like 600 HP for about 3% avoidance.

I suppose for boss tanking that extra avoidance would be nice, but I also don't want to go too high on avoidance where my threat sucks due to not enough Holy Shield.

"Why not 2 avoidance trinkets?"

Simply put, it boils down to what you need. I'd rather have 50 stam and 2% dodge than 100 stam. At many points, the damage input is so large that having 1k more hp means you'll still get 3-4 shot to death. Do what you like, just make sure you're not sucking because of a big number that won't do you shit.
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Postby Ashmadai » Tue May 27, 2008 9:01 am

So last night in TK I ran with Moroes + Commendation, and realized I was still over 20k HP with commanding shout, so I decided I shall stick with this setup for progression content. I had a shammy with me and with grace of air my avoidance actually got up to 60.7%, so that was pretty sweet.

I think I'm going to replace the Moroes with the Guardian's alchemist stone so my Mad alch. pots will be even more awesome, and it actually gives more pure avoidance than the Moroes trinket anyway.
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Re: Why not wear two Stam trinkets?

Postby Splug » Tue May 27, 2008 9:36 am

Snake-Aes wrote:"Why not 2 avoidance trinkets?"

Simply put, it boils down to what you need. I'd rather have 50 stam and 2% dodge than 100 stam. At many points, the damage input is so large that having 1k more hp means you'll still get 3-4 shot to death. Do what you like, just make sure you're not sucking because of a big number that won't do you shit.
Pretty much, this is dead on. It folds into the fairly common concept of stacking EH until you hit the accepted minimum for an encounter (usually three unmitigated hits without a heal), and then pile up avoidance. If you need both stam trinkets to hit that EH point, go for it. If one puts you there, go stam/avoidance. If you outgear the encounter enough to not need either stam trinket (or the rest of your gear is extremely EH heavy) you may want to consider going 2x avoidance, or avoidance/threat.

Ultimately the goal is to tailor your gear to a point that ballances EH, avoidance, and threat. Where that point is will be determined by the encounter, raid composition, and the rest of your gear. Trinkets do not have an armor value or set bonus associated with the slot, so they're often the easiest slot to change, followed by rings and necklace.

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Re: Why not wear two Stam trinkets?

Postby Snake-Aes » Tue May 27, 2008 12:11 pm

Splug wrote:
Snake-Aes wrote:"Why not 2 avoidance trinkets?"

Simply put, it boils down to what you need. I'd rather have 50 stam and 2% dodge than 100 stam. At many points, the damage input is so large that having 1k more hp means you'll still get 3-4 shot to death. Do what you like, just make sure you're not sucking because of a big number that won't do you shit.
Pretty much, this is dead on. It folds into the fairly common concept of stacking EH until you hit the accepted minimum for an encounter (usually three unmitigated hits without a heal), and then pile up avoidance. If you need both stam trinkets to hit that EH point, go for it. If one puts you there, go stam/avoidance. If you outgear the encounter enough to not need either stam trinket (or the rest of your gear is extremely EH heavy) you may want to consider going 2x avoidance, or avoidance/threat.

Ultimately the goal is to tailor your gear to a point that ballances EH, avoidance, and threat. Where that point is will be determined by the encounter, raid composition, and the rest of your gear. Trinkets do not have an armor value or set bonus associated with the slot, so they're often the easiest slot to change, followed by rings and necklace.

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Re: Why not wear two Stam trinkets?

Postby moduspwnens » Tue May 27, 2008 2:33 pm

Snake-Aes wrote:
Ashmadai wrote:http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Malfurion&n=Ashmadai

There's my armory. I always see people say don't wear two stam trinkets, and I'm wondering why. I'm in a 5/6 SSC 3/4 TK guild, and we're about to start Hyjal. Unbuffed now I am right at 16k HP, with about 53% pure avoidance. My dodge is at almost 24% unbuffed. Fully raid buffed I end up at almost 21k HP and 55% avoidance, 26% of it as dodge.

Should I go with Moroes trinket or the Guardian's Alchemist Stone(which I'm going to craft) over the DMC:V? I'm going to lose like 600 HP for about 3% avoidance.

I suppose for boss tanking that extra avoidance would be nice, but I also don't want to go too high on avoidance where my threat sucks due to not enough Holy Shield.

"Why not 2 avoidance trinkets?"

Simply put, it boils down to what you need. I'd rather have 50 stam and 2% dodge than 100 stam. At many points, the damage input is so large that having 1k more hp means you'll still get 3-4 shot to death. Do what you like, just make sure you're not sucking because of a big number that won't do you shit.


Well, not QUITE. It's firstly worth mentioning that stamina trinkets are worth more than face value, because they are increased by our talents and Kings, while dodge ones are not. So (assuming a 1.26 modifier), for the Commendation, that's actually ~72 stamina (~64.26 for DMC:V).

Secondly, there's the argument of an "Oh, sh*t!" button. The Commendation offers 8% dodge for 10 seconds each time you are knocked below 35% ("stacking" with Ardent Defender), while the pocketwatch offers 16% dodge once every 2 minutes for the same amount of time. As far as uses go, I know which I'd rather have.

Another thought is that while avoidance gets more and more powerful as you get more of it, much of its value is taken away when you step into Sunwell Plateau. Sixteen percent dodge sounds pretty nice when it takes you from 60-65% avoidance to 75-80% avoidance, but in Sunwell, you're going to be jumping from 35-40% avoidance to 50-55%. Not much of an "oh sh*t" button now, is it?

I suppose it's partially personal preference, and I am an admitted Effective Health fan, but I personally recommend the DMC:V and Commendation for non-threat reliant hard hitter tanking. With no "real" Paladin trinkets in Sunwell, there aren't too terribly many choices.
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Postby Gamingdevil » Tue May 27, 2008 4:27 pm

Ok, I see a lot of people arugueing that "avoiding a 5k hit is better than 500 extra hp" and I feel like I have to say something. First off, after talents and kings, the DMC:V gives around 640 hp, the pocket watch gives you ~2% dodge.
Now assuming a boss that hits for 5k every second the pocket watch makes you take 6000 less damage per minute over the course of a fight while the DMC would give you 640 more hp for your healers to work with. I think your healers can heal you for 600 every 6 seconds, so it balances out.
If it weren't for the "oh sh.. button" you do need once in a while, I'd be leaning in favor of the stamina trinket (which I am using atm, way past uncrush anyway untill I replace some block rating on my gear)
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Postby Kelaan » Tue May 27, 2008 4:56 pm

Gamingdevil wrote:the pocket watch gives you ~2% dodge.
Now assuming a boss that hits for 5k every second the pocket watch makes you take 6000 less damage per minute over the course of a fight....


If the passive avoidance were the only issue, then sure -- but the panic button ability to get significantly more avoidance is the crucial part.

Rarely will 600 hp make a difference between life and death (unless it changes you from 2-hit to 3-hit range, or 1-hit to 2-hit range), and 2% avoidance is somewhat piddly -- but being able to go from 50% to 65% avoidance is a HUGE reduction of incoming damage when you potentially need it most.

If you had the Commendation active, that'd take you from, say, 50% to 58% avoidance -- and then popping the Watch would get you from 58 to 73% avoidance. This means you'd now be taking only 40% of the hits you would when Commendation is normally active. For situations when you really need to live long enough for a heal to land, this sounds like a really good thing. If you have MORE base avoidance than this, then the trinket is even better.
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Postby Melathys » Tue May 27, 2008 8:13 pm

I used to do double stam trinkets. I still have the gear set in my itemrack.

But. I decided to play with my gear. One of the big changes was trinket. I changed darkmoon card for pocket watch (keeping commendation for everything). The main reason I started playing with my gear was to find a way to fit in the SSO necklace. Being aldor, the dodge proc is nice.

So, I ended up with about 500 less stamina (from 16.6k to 16.1k unbuffed) but came out with an extra 4% dodge (from 19 to 23%) along with the added proc from SSO neck. Add to that the passive proc of commendation and an ohsht button from pocket watch. (edit. the numbers I put out are not just trinket change, but changes from all gear I had to swap around to achieve uncrushable/uncrittable etc etc)

All in all, I'm happy with the change, even though I lose some e-peen stamina.

My current debate is whether or not to change pocket watch for scarab and thus be able to use badge gloves over maiden gloves.
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Postby jere » Tue May 27, 2008 8:18 pm

Gamingdevil wrote:Ok, I see a lot of people arugueing that "avoiding a 5k hit is better than 500 extra hp" and I feel like I have to say something. First off, after talents and kings, the DMC:V gives around 640 hp, the pocket watch gives you ~2% dodge.
Now assuming a boss that hits for 5k every second the pocket watch makes you take 6000 less damage per minute over the course of a fight while the DMC would give you 640 more hp for your healers to work with. I think your healers can heal you for 600 every 6 seconds, so it balances out.
If it weren't for the "oh sh.. button" you do need once in a while, I'd be leaning in favor of the stamina trinket (which I am using atm, way past uncrush anyway untill I replace some block rating on my gear)


On the same note, you need to consider the fact that you don't use that extra 640 hp all the time. Basically how often do you dip below 640 health such that having that trinket will save you? Compare that to the amount of damage the pocket watch helps you avoid. You typically can overdo stamina to the point where it almost never benefits you to have more than X amount. Avoidance is harder to overdo in that it will almost always reduce incoming dps.

After some point, you can have too much stamina in that you don't make use of it at all. At that point it makes better sense to bump up AC, BV, and avoidance as those will continue to reduce incoming DPS.
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Postby moduspwnens » Tue May 27, 2008 9:40 pm

jere wrote:After some point, you can have too much stamina in that you don't make use of it at all.


Really? At what point is that?

We can argue theoretically about the point at which stamina isn't useful, but I don't think it's too crazy to say that the avoidance offered on most tanking pieces is enough, and almost all gems / enchantments / trinkets should be offering stamina (or perhaps threat). Would I trade in some of the avoidance on my gear for stamina if I could? Probably, but how much would be "too much" is irrelevant due to itemization.

Also, avoidance becomes substantially less valuable in Sunwell. This is shown in many Sunwell pieces, including Collar of the Pit Lord, Steely Naaru Sliver, Pauldrons of Perseverance, and Crimson Paragon's Cover, all of which are very low on avoidance for their ilevel. In fact, in FULL Sunwell gear, a tank will have only 33%-38% total avoidance, making it quite silly as an itemization choice.

jere wrote:On the same note, you need to consider the fact that you don't use that extra 640 hp all the time. Basically how often do you dip below 640 health such that having that trinket will save you?


Well, of course I don't always use that 640 HP, but what kind of argument is that? More health is more health, which makes healing easier in bad situations. The important thing about that stamina is that it's always there, unlike a 2% dodge dice roll, or even a 16% dodge "on use" button. Also, it's not a huge deal, but more HP also scales positively with Ardent Defender, and DMC:V also has the small threat bonus to it.
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Postby roosevelt » Tue May 27, 2008 10:32 pm

moduspwnens wrote:
Well, of course I don't always use that 640 HP, but what kind of argument is that? More health is more health, which makes healing easier in bad situations. The important thing about that stamina is that it's always there, unlike a 2% dodge dice roll, or even a 16% dodge "on use" button. Also, it's not a huge deal, but more HP also scales positively with Ardent Defender, and DMC:V also has the small threat bonus to it.


I have to disagree. The 640 hp is "only there" when all your other hp have been run through. The 2% dodge is "always there" and the 16% is "there when you need it most" which IMO is actually more often than you would get below 640 hp with the stam trinket on.

I know a lot of people are tempted to say that the 2% and even 16% aren't a big deal because random chance means they might not even do anything. If you look at the math that 18% makes you less likely to take a hit, much less likely to take 2 hits in a row, and *much* less likely to take 3 or more hits in a row etc. IMO thats a lot more useful than just an 640 hp cushion when I would have otherwise died. I'm not knocking stam, but I like to get it somewhere else because you can't get the use/proc of tinkets anywhere else.

This is why I especialy don't like DMC:V, the threat is too little and unreliable to be counted on to hold agro so its just a nice little bonus. Commendation of kael, or figurine: crimson serpent on the other hand are good examples of trinkets with other uses in addition to the stam. The commendation's proc makes it the best for pairing with a second stam trinket.
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Postby Escoger » Tue May 27, 2008 10:47 pm

One thing I am curious about. Just hypothetically, about how much dodge rating would an item have to give you to be more valuable to YOU than say 20 points of stamina ignoring all other factors.

It would help us see how you guys feel about avoidance's value versus stamina and frankly I am curious to see how you all would respond.
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Postby roosevelt » Tue May 27, 2008 11:13 pm

Escoger wrote:One thing I am curious about. Just hypothetically, about how much dodge rating would an item have to give you to be more valuable to YOU than say 20 points of stamina ignoring all other factors.

It would help us see how you guys feel about avoidance's value versus stamina and frankly I am curious to see how you all would respond.


Stamina and its value are relative. It depends on the fight, my gear, my healers and their gear. Again, its not that I don't value stamina. I just prefer to stack it gems/gear rather than in the trinket slot where you can get use/proc that can't be replicated by other items.

My over all philosophy is to balance stats for raid bosses. When your threat is fine and you don't take too much spike damage then stam is a great thing to stack. In general I just value a panic button that I can't get anywhere else.

I'm not saying I won't use 2 stam trinkets ever, I do when OTing gruul and when I out gear content. It just bothers me how much people over value stamina as seen here. Stamina is great but not to the point where you enchant 150 hp over 15 defense or give up a useful proc/use for just stam (especialy if all your gem slots aren't straight stam). To answer your question I value 3.5% avoidance over 26 stam as proven in the linked thread.

To clarify; all my arguments and opinions are for raid bosses. You shouldn't really need a panic button on trash, if you do then good luck without one on the boss.
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Postby Eaglestrike » Wed May 28, 2008 12:03 am

After reading this thread I've moved to using Commendation / Pocket Watch as opposed to Commendation / DMC:V for most situations. I'm greatly enjoying this. It opens me up for more gear options (it now easily puts me over uncrushable without needing the block libram, so I get more single target threat with SoR/JoR) and the use is wonderful. For instance clearing Kara tonight I had to move Prince all the way across the whole damn roof on a diagonal move and without both the trinket usage AND Lay on Hands I would have died for sure (healers were also moving, we had a well-geared shaman but a brand new first time in Kara druid as the only healers).

From now on I'm going to be using Moroes for any "serious" boss fight. And since I'm not in 25-mans that basically means Hex Lord / Zul'Jin, heh. But I'll probably use it for all ZA bosses, except Lynx as I normally OT (just because I'm a lot better at picking up the spirit with consecration tick + JoR) and the higher health while not being the target of most heals can be a life saver, lol.

For trash and situations where magic damage is heavy I'll probably stick with double stam, but if it's not an easy fight (as in I don't run out of mana) I think the extra avoidance is very helpful for the entire raid.
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Postby Janduin » Wed May 28, 2008 12:46 am

I try to remember to swap in the Zul'jin armor trinket for Zul'jin, as I already get overpowered up the wazoo on bear phase. Not a huge deal though. PW/Commendation everywhere else (I estimate PW and Commendation save me ~2/3 deaths on Kalecgos every time we kill him due to healers not being in place/being ported).
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