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Gruul's OT

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Gruul's OT

Postby Noelle » Tue May 27, 2008 5:08 am

I've sat on the forums reading what I can for advice on how to OT Gruul's. We have 3 geared tanks in our guild and getting a few more up there, but until then, we're the main ones to tank the main bosses.

I've been put on OT 'duty' for Gruul's behind our Warrior. This isn't a problem for me, but I fraps all our fights so I can see what I'm doing and what I need to change to make myself better (obsessive, I know).

Every Gruul's fight that I've OT'd, at the end of the video's I'm dead. The heals can't seem to keep up.

The beginning of the fights are fine. Most the time I'm not getting hit by the hurtful strikes by dodging or what-have-you and have to do what I can to take damage (cave ins and such) just to get healed for the mana. That hasn't proven a problem.

But later in the fight, I'm just... dead. :?

Fully buffed for Gruul's I'm over 18k health and my avoidance is around 120% (with holy shield, of course) and my spell dmg is somewhere over 600.

Armory: http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ysera&n=Noelle

I only have one assigned healer to keep me up the entire fight. Tank has the rest. Is it something I am doing? Because later on in the fight I'm staying out of the cave ins as I'm being hit by hurtful strikes but I'm just not able to stay healed. Should I get a second healer assigned to me? Is it my gear? What would be the problem?

Here's a video of our first time taking Gruul down. At the end... I'm dead. Forgive the crappy graphics as it is... You Tube :evil:

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_77sFcF_IMg

Thanks in advance.

:wink: Noelle
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue May 27, 2008 5:23 am

1 little pick: Blocking works against crushes but isn't avoidance properly :p Avoidance is the real thing(miss,dodge,parry).

That said, hurtful strikes don't crush so blocking here is as good as nothing, as block value is of little significance against an attack that always hit hard. To how many growths are you guys getting? Gruul shouldn't be alive past growth 13~ on a progression kill, his hurtfuls can hit for over 14k at that point. There's more than enough gear before doing him and dps should be high.

One thing that I noticed in my progression kill of Gruul is that the healers simply lose focus. Often you'll die recently after a shatter. They worry about raid healing and simply forget to heal the 2-3 tanks.Specially after 6 or so growths, the tanks just can't go unhealed.
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Postby Noelle » Tue May 27, 2008 6:00 am

On the video I posted he actually got to Grow 18. I was dead right after 13. I had a hurtful strike but wasn't healed when he turned to hit me with another one. No ground slam either at that point.

That seems to be a trend. We're getting him down faster now, but what they're doing now (the raid leader) is pushing me off in healing gear and having warriors take the off tanking (even tho they aren't geared) and seem to die as well.

After a MAJOR complaint to the raid leader that it's my not getting healed that's the problem, he's said he's no longer going to make me heal. Seems easier to make me heal vs. actually learning how a pally tanks and making the healers actually pay attention and do their job.

We have a few REALLY good healers, the rest, well.... yeah.

I don't know. Just makes me feel as tho I'm not as good a tank as I'd like if I can't even OT Gruul, but I don't think it's me in this particular situation, altho I'm not really sure. :?
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Postby Levantine » Tue May 27, 2008 6:00 am

As much as I hate to say it, it seems like the healers have ADD. =/

Make them give out healing assignments, and make them keep to them. A healer spamming you full time should be heaps with the gear you have.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue May 27, 2008 6:04 am

Grow 18 = bad dps. Even before 2.3 and 2.4 badge gear Gruul should be dead just after growth 14 or 15~ Are they dieing too early? Or are they just sucking? Make a WWS Parse and show it to them. The dps to take him down before growth 14 is actually not very high(doesn't average as even 800 dps per dpser, plus the odd 300 from each tank)
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Postby ulushnar » Tue May 27, 2008 6:06 am

Noelle wrote:On the video I posted he actually got to Grow 18. I was dead right after 13.


This is your problem.

If you're not getting him dead by about growth 12-13, then you really need to look at your DPS or raid composition. The fact your raid's surviving to growth 18 makes me think you've possibly stacked too much healing in the raid. Or too many tanks.

For our first few Gruul kills there would be me, a Warrior and a Druid in the raid for Maulgar. After Maulgar, either the Warrior would switch to his 'Lock or I'd switch to my Hunter for Gruul.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue May 27, 2008 6:08 am

Ulushnar wrote:
Noelle wrote:On the video I posted he actually got to Grow 18. I was dead right after 13.


This is your problem.

If you're not getting him dead by about growth 12-13, then you really need to look at your DPS or raid composition. The fact your raid's surviving to growth 18 makes me think you've possibly stacked too much healing in the raid. Or too many tanks.
Or that. 2-3 tanks and 6 or 7 healers are more than enough.
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Postby ulushnar » Tue May 27, 2008 6:15 am

Snake-Aes wrote:Grow 18 = bad dps. Even before 2.3 and 2.4 badge gear Gruul should be dead just after growth 14 or 15~


QFT, pre-2.3, our third kill was on 13 growths and that was 22-manning him in basically Kara gear.

You need good DPS, and you need your DPS to stay alive (ie run away from each other before a shatter).

Practise separating your healers/ranged DPS into four quadrants of the cave, that way you shouldn't get too many folks crowded in one area.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue May 27, 2008 6:21 am

To be frank, pure dpsers should be easily attaining 900 dps there in pure kara + crafted gear. The numbers to get him down before 16 are of like 600 dps per damage dealer.
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Postby Noelle » Tue May 27, 2008 7:16 am

That video was our very first attempt at him. We've improved a bit but not much. We've had a huge problem with our guild with people who want to raid and are actively trying to learn their classes and get gear and a LOT of people who don't have a clue, don't want to get gear, have weird specs going and just wanna tag along, have purples and "GO RAID!"

Our make up is usually six healers, four prot specced tanks, a feral Druid and the rest are DPS. A lot of the DPS are those not really geared but that are filling in spots. We've taken some tanks out for DPS but with the healing as it has been, it's been a real nightmare.

Weird thing is, we can head into ZA without too many problems at all, we also pick and choose those that are actually geared to go. But Gruul's is 25-man and when we first went, it was "to see what it was like". Now it's a weekly raid, getting better each week, but we're also getting MORE picky as to who goes and if we need to pug some people, we do.

We have handful of geared DPS, the rest are iffy. We've talked to them, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in.

With our tank situation, we have our MT Warrior and myself who are geared to actually tank. We can't switch out really. The other tanks, want the gear, which is understandable but the other warrior and pally can't really switch out either. Warrior doesn't have another class to bring in and he wants the gear. The other pally doesn't have another character either and doesn't have any healing gear to switch to so he "DPS's". The druid uses his DPS gear.

Our DPS is improving each week because we've changed how we're taking on the raids, but Gruul's seems to be *my* downfall when it comes to this raid. We're making standards to join the raids. They have to have the gear and we're making the DPS look at themselves and their output. None of the "after fight" talks, involve healing.

Maybe I'll discuss that prior to the raid tonight. I just am tired of the headaches and feeling as tho I'm not doing my job properly. Plus, it costs an arm and a leg just to repair.
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Postby ulushnar » Tue May 27, 2008 7:21 am

At 18 Growths, Gruul's HS will pretty much one-shot any tank in gear appropriate to the level where you're training him.

There's no justification to bringing four prot tanks to Gruul. Try to talk at least one into sitting out on a rotation. Have the other one intervene to you during silences to spread the HS load.
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Postby ShieldLove » Tue May 27, 2008 2:41 pm

Ulushnar wrote:At 18 Growths, Gruul's HS will pretty much one-shot any tank in gear appropriate to the level where you're training him.

There's no justification to bringing four prot tanks to Gruul. Try to talk at least one into sitting out on a rotation. Have the other one intervene to you during silences to spread the HS load.


At grow 18, Gruul will hit a tank with 18000 armor for 9-12k a shot. He can also Hurtful strike right after his melee swings.
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Postby Lalecize » Tue May 27, 2008 6:52 pm

Hmm I'd ask for a shot to tank it yourself :D

Nah its plain and simple - a DPS issue. Growth 18 is far too high.

On our progression kill we had him at 15. Now if he gets to 13 I start yelling at my dps to go harder.

Your healers need to gradually swap from DPS to the tanks as the growths go up. In that sense its a dps race.

I have only ever MT'd it. I'm the guilds MT so don't get much time off- I've done it for every guild kill.

If the growths go past 16 (yes we have had that when dps dies stupidly) often I will die, and the OT has to finish it off for the last few seconds as the damage he does is just too high. Usually I live for the whole fight though if people do their job.

You do not need 4 tanks, however its fully do able with 4. Have all but two pop in their dps gear. You as a paladin are less useful as OT as you will probably go OOM.

Id suggest either maintank it, or heal for the fight. If you heal for it you can ditch a healer, and bring another dps.

We personally mark the MT and the Healers up with raid target icons. During shatters DPS are told to keep far away from them.

The key is your DPS not dying during the shatters, and burning him down as fast as possible.
At growth 18 im not surprised your not healed, your healers will be screaming down the big ones on the maintank.

Don't worry it will get easier. Your DPS is probably a bit undergeared, so keep the kara raids going to gear em up during the week.
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Gruul's This Week :: Update

Postby Noelle » Fri May 30, 2008 11:18 am

So I pointed my Raid Leader to this thread. We've pushed the raiders in our guild to gear, gear and gear some more.

For the first time since ever taking on Gruul's, we 1 shot both encounters. I did die. Silence just hit at the wrong time and I couldn't do anything but wait for that killing blow on me.

Our MT died as well but, DPS pulled out everything, even the Shaman healers dropping Fire Elementals. They downed him.

It was awesome but the heals and DPS improved TONS. High hopes for future encounters.

Thanks guys for the help.

:wink: Noelle
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Postby Snake-Aes » Fri May 30, 2008 11:39 am

Congratulations =) Do it more and more to get everyone used to the fight and gear up. Gruul's loot is one of the best for the level of content(Best shield till T6, best melee dps trinket ever, Good caster drops)
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