Heroics - A Reality Check!

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Should I be Tanking Heroics?

Poll ended at Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:57 pm

Yes, keep at it!
15
88%
No, Gear up and Learn2Play, noob!
2
12%
 
Total votes : 17

Heroics - A Reality Check!

Postby Dunkan » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:57 pm

OK, need some advice - Gear and Strat.

Please check my armory. I am currently upgrading my gems and enchants however I have a simple question - should I be tanking in a heroic with that current kit?

The two that I have tanked so far are Mech (first three badges, twice) and Underbog (first badge). I am after Nethers/Badges/Suneater/Fanblade/Aldor Chest via rep/Sha'tar shield via rep.

My main issue seems to be pulling. If I use Avengers Shield, I pull with threat so high that it is a real chore for a hunter to trap. Sheeping I am ok with (sheep AFTER the pull), but sometimes I feel that I cannot take more than two mobs on me at once. Although no one has said I am a cruddy tank, I do feel less in control than normal. Back to tossing grenades to pull? I may grab the Decapitator http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28767 for single mob pulls, switching weapon afterwards when I get to Kara (I am MONTHS BEHIND here).

In UB last night, we had a slightly different approach where it was CC as many as we could, then dps all out on mobs left stunning when possible. Tanking only bosses.

I really cannot say which I prefer here. Neither seemed to work well and squishies still died. I WAS in a PuG, but then again I have ALWAYS run PuGs and this was way worse than usual.

On the plus side, I will be continuing to go into Mech and UB so I will use my first 10 badges (3 to go!) to purchase a Primal Nether for my Tankatronic goggles (mats sitting in my bank, skilled up and ready to make!) and use what comes after to buy my Libram.

Just looking for some feedback. I use my pally to the full, running the Gauntlet in SH with a sprint (yet to die!) which I enjoy.

But again, am I wasting peoples time tanking in Heroics at the moment?

EDIT: I often have to resort to the hunter pulling with misdirect.


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Postby Buttertoast » Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:22 pm

i'm going to give you the "heroics spiel" that i give everyone.

1. use more stuns.
2. figure out what mobs got buffed out the ass from normal mode. stun them while dps slaughters them, or cc them. or in the case of bog lords, mash all your threat buttons while crying.
3. did i mention to stun the piss out of everything? it is the best damage mitigation available for heroic mode.

P.S. your gear is fine to begin heroics. the majority of the gear stress is piled onto the healer in the form of huge health pools and increased sustained damage, which requires that he be well-balanced for endurance healing. sure, the tank's gear does factor into this equation, but to a much smaller extent than you might like.
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Postby PsiVen » Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:40 pm

blah blah blah CC blah blah


No no, you're doing it wrong. Your gear is good, and if your healer can't handle you tanking every mob on every Heroic pull short of multi-Reaver SH pulls, it's his fault. If squishies die, it's either them being retarded and pulling aggro, or your fault for letting them try to CC something. If your healer is drinking mana pots and still going OOM, then and only then is it a gear/CC problem.

Also, don't bother with Sun Eater. I have one, and I have never found a legitimate use for it.
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Postby Dunkan » Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:40 pm

So how would people feel about me dropping Precision for Improved Hammer of Justice for when I am doing Heroics?

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=aZV0tIxhdggqzVbx

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Postby PsiVen » Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:50 pm

Sounds good. I've never been a big fan of Precision or Weapon Expertise, and HoJ is very useful in Heroics.
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Postby Puss » Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:55 am

just like any other instance, there's only 1 way to do heroics better: know the instance. Know where the patrols are, know that the dogs in heroic shattered halls hit like crazy and you need to nuke them before the doggyman, know that casters are ALWAYS your worst nightmare, have mages CS them , sheep etc.
As for hunter traps : you pull , standing behind the trap. First one to run in the trap is the 'trapped' one, nuke the others. Works well. Then have the hunter trap him again , keeping in mind where you're standing.

Seems like you are just running heroics with people who have no clue on how to play their character. At a certain point you need to set a limit to people's ability to play , and mages that don't resheep BEFORE the sheep is unsheeped are bad mages, hunters who can't trap correctly ( whether they have aggro or not ) are bad hunters, priests who use Fade after getting 1 shotted are bad priests , etc.. nothing you can do about that.

Also make sure you know what's going on. Is that mage pulling aggro on purpose coz he's a frostmage and wants to nuke him himself , coz he has something to prove ? Or maybe they just don't like paladin tanks and want to make your life miserable, maybe that hunter is doing his best to trap that target and pulls aggro and the mage tries to 'save' him by frost nova and everything is fucked up. All kinds of things can go wrong, make sure you know what went wrong and why. NEVER allow people to post damagemeters , that just provokes people and makes them play badly.

If you have a paladin healer for heroics, get a druid or shammy or priest instead. If you have rogues, dump em for mages / warlocks. Some bosses in heroics ( and mobs ) require a 'good' 5man makeup , and tbh I play best without them in 5mans.

Basically use this :

- Always pull with Avengers shield, consecrate max rank , if the mages slack and they don't sheep in time and they get the consecrate thing, then keep consecrating, and tank everything. Don't stop building threat, because the healer will die eventually if you stop building threat, and everyone will blame you for it ( rightly so ! ).

- Always bless EVERYONE with Salvation ( even the warriors )

- Melee is your strong point , Magic your weak : Nuke casters first !

- Keep holy shield up at all time : good threat

- Use all your mana on all your pulls. Tell your healer to do the same.


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Postby Everlight » Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:29 am

I take some exception with a few of the items in the above post. Namely;

- Always bless EVERYONE with Salvation ( even the warriors )


Warriors require Salvation because they rely on high threat attacks such as Heroic Strike, and have no inbuilt aggro dump.

Hunters have Feign Death. They don't need Salvation - they can work just fine with Might. Depending on the Rogues and Feral Druids, I'll either Might them or Salvation them.

Basically, it comes down to the person. If they can manage their aggro and do a better job with Might on, give them Might. If they can't, give them Salvation. If they are a DPS caster, give them Salvation anyway. Blessing with Salvation is not a hard-and-fast rule, it depends on you and the people you're with.

- Use all your mana on all your pulls. Tell your healer to do the same.


This leads to excessive downtime. If you are holding aggro on the mobs and everyone's going all out, you are not making the run faster by driving yourself OOM - all you are doing is extending the lead you already have.

priests who use Fade after getting 1 shotted are bad priests


Actually, they are incredible priests, since they have found a way to use non-healing abilities while dead :P

if the mages slack and they don't sheep in time and they get the consecrate thing, then keep consecrating, and tank everything.


While I'm a big proponent of the 'tank everything' theory - hell, we AOE tank Karazhan, this will get you killed in Heroics if you stick to this as a rule.

An alternate tactic (if you know the pull contains highly dangerous mobs that must be CC'ed) is to fling the shield, put up HS, and your healers won't pull healing aggro in the few seconds it takes you to confirm the mob has been sheeped, step back a few yards, and then Consecrate.
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Postby Vanifae » Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:24 am

How about just play intelligently and use the tools aon hand to make everyone's life easier.

Just because you can aoe tank everything does not mean you absolutely have to.

Only an idiot forgoes the tools on hand to make your life easier.
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Postby Puss » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:06 am

We're talking about him running in a PUG, and 90% of the PUGs are noobs and you as a tank will have to NOT trust they can play , just bet safe and don't be sorry, that's all.

And those are just my own experiences with PUGs : don't trust them , *know* that they are noobs and will do whatever you have not even thought of anyone could do to fuck up :l I even got Misdirection on my mage from a hunter once -> Pom pyro while he's CC'd is the only real answer to that.

- Hunters will NOT feign death in time ( and give you some slacker excuse like "oh it was on cooldown" or whatever ) : Salvation everyone


/quote
An alternate tactic (if you know the pull contains highly dangerous mobs that must be CC'ed) is to fling the shield, put up HS, and your healers won't pull healing aggro in the few seconds it takes you to confirm the mob has been sheeped, step back a few yards, and then Consecrate.
/quote

Well that sounds all nice and all. You'll put up HS, the mage nukes pyro on the mobs that's not skulled ( remember they are noobs ) and you run after that mob, using righteous defense. In the meantime , the warlock pulled aggro on your main mob since he wasn't tanked , and your RD is on CD now. Then you use holy shield and AW to desperately get aggro back from the warlock ( the mage by now is nuking pyroblasts again ) and your third mob just 1-hitted your priest that is clicking his Fade button after he died. <- experience : AOE tanking ftw : don't stop building threat because people don't even have threatmeter installed in PUGs.


If you play with guildies : yes , by all means, conserve mana , do your uberbest, CC everything and do a homerun. In PUG's , your goal is to correct everyone else's mistake , and they make them often : so prepare for a busy time ( of just don't run PUG's anymore )

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Postby Vanifae » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:16 am

Make yourself leader and mark everything.

People like pretty marks.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:01 am

Vanifae wrote:Make yourself leader and mark everything.

People like pretty marks.


The best sign that a PUG is going to be tears is if the tank isn't leading, or if it's obvious the leader and the tank don't know each other or haven't worked together before.

Know every instance.

Know everyone's job. Understand game mechanics of all the classes, and how to best use them.

Make sure everyone knows what they're supposed to be doing.

If they don't, then don't waste your time with them.

Tanks are in high enough demand that you can always find another party. Especially if you have many healer friends.

If DPS can't understand that they are supposed to DPS the skull, and that they're not to engage the mob until it has kicked you in the teeth a couple times, then don't babysit them through the instance.

I PuG a lot. I rarely have any problems. Sure, there are the occasional horrible groups. I was with one warlock the other night who (as we found out at the end) thought swstats DMs was the threat meter and didn't want to "out threat me".

So yeah, there are bad players out there. As a tank, you have the option of not playing with them.
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Postby Tanks-PL » Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:04 pm

Your gear is fine, actually better than what I had when I started Heroics.

Now, depending on where I want to go I PICK the group. When I was going after badges at Mech for the libram (3 badge run), I'd ask for ranged DPS and healer. If I want to clear the instance then I'd swap out one of the ranged DPS with a rogue to interrupt charged fist.

You decide who to take and where to go. As a tank I have spammed LF4M for xxx need xxx and filled groups real fast in PUGs.

Of course, sometimes a guildie wants to come, then you have to improvise for the encounter if his/her spec is not that well suited.
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Postby Holyshot » Wed Aug 08, 2007 6:04 am

Rofl, dude i'm starting to get tired of heroics, i need a new challenge. I have successfully AoE tanked every heroic instance, along with all of Karazhan. They need to do somethin for me since my MT is stubborn and won't let me show them whats what in any of the bigger 25 mans. Gear looks good though. I just suggest a bit of CC in the Hellfire Instances since some of the mobs hit pretty hard but other then that you should be good to AoE almost all the other heroics.
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Postby pyrotechniq » Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:43 am

Make sure mobs that can fear are cc'ed if your aoe tanking. God I love fear ward
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Postby guillex » Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:57 am

Holyshot wrote:Rofl, dude i'm starting to get tired of heroics, i need a new challenge. I have successfully AoE tanked every heroic instance, along with all of Karazhan. They need to do somethin for me since my MT is stubborn and won't let me show them whats what in any of the bigger 25 mans. Gear looks good though. I just suggest a bit of CC in the Hellfire Instances since some of the mobs hit pretty hard but other then that you should be good to AoE almost all the other heroics.


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