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How important is hit rating and expertise?

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How important is hit rating and expertise?

Postby Talmus » Fri May 23, 2008 1:41 pm

I'm currently getting to the point where some of my gear options have nice chunks of hit rating and/or expertise. Taking these options often comes at the cost of stamina or mitigation though. According to the prot paladin template in the Lootrank forums hit rating/expertise is pretty low on the totem pole compared to stamina and mitigation but given gear of about the same overall quality this would mean that you'd almost always pass on the hit rating/expertise gear.

So my question is this - if you feel like you're getting enough threat is there any reason to value hit rating and expertise higher than the template does? I'm just wanting to make sure that I'm not going to suddenly 'hit a wall' on certain mobs where I suddenly drop off the map in threat due to a low hit rating. And just to toss in a real world example I'm looking at Necklace of the Deep with two +12 sta gems versus Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve.

Even ignoring the proc for a moment you're looking at the argument I laid out above. The 42sta on necklace of the deep is close to the 48 on the shattered sun and if I sprang for more expensive gems they'd be equal there so let's call that a push. So it comes down to 21 agility against 13 hit rating, 18 expertise, and the proc (100 to dodge about 1/6th of the time). Again, keeping the proc out of the discussion my initial thought before doing any research was that 13 hit rating and 18 expertise should easily trump 21 agility. On further thought and looking at Lootrank's values I'm not so sure.
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Postby Splug » Fri May 23, 2008 1:49 pm

It's a survivability vs threat tradeoff. There is no direct comparison between the two, since they work toward completely different goals. If you are consistently ahead on threat, then you should not value excess threat very highly. Or if you are dieing too much, or driving your healers oom, then you should focus more on avoidance/health. What that basically boils down to is: make the decision based on the quality of the other group members. For a high-powered group where the healer can keep you alive through hell and back, and the damage is cranking like mad, abandon survival and ramp up threat: if you're not going to die, make sure the warlock doesn't either. On the other hand, if you're in an undergeared pug where you question the healer's ability to keep you alive, or the damage is clocking in at autoattack levels, threat is a secondary concern.

EDIT: And yes, that means you're stuck hauling both items around. A good tank has no spare inventory space.

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Postby Talmus » Fri May 23, 2008 2:00 pm

Splug wrote:It's a survivability vs threat tradeoff. There is no direct comparison between the two, since they work toward completely different goals. If you are consistently ahead on threat, then you should not value excess threat very highly. Or if you are dieing too much, or driving your healers oom, then you should focus more on avoidance/health. What that basically boils down to is: make the decision based on the quality of the other group members. For a high-powered group where the healer can keep you alive through hell and back, and the damage is cranking like mad, abandon survival and ramp up threat: if you're not going to die, make sure the warlock doesn't either. On the other hand, if you're in an undergeared pug where you question the healer's ability to keep you alive, or the damage is clocking in at autoattack levels, threat is a secondary concern.

EDIT: And yes, that means you're stuck hauling both items around. A good tank has no spare inventory space.

-Splug


That's great...as long as it's more of a sliding scale on the expertise/hit rate end of things and not a 'get this number or you can't hit the mob' thing then that backs up the idea of carrying both around. Honestly though I'm still in Kara/Heroics so I doubt the Shattered Sun pendant gets much use...my threat is just fine and probably would be fine in most situations if I didn't swing my mace. Be Imba just scared me into worrying about the hit rate/expertise with their Notices section.

I will say though that in non-raids I'd be tempted to pop the shattered sun back on for mitigation purposes. Raids where you'd just create overhealing the proc doesn't make sense but 5.28% chance to dodge about 1/6 to 1/5 of the time is going to mitigate more than the 21 agi would in times where you're not getting pounded.
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Postby Gimorth » Fri May 23, 2008 2:00 pm

Your item-to-item comparision are comparing very difficult to compare stats. Agility is an avoidance/mitigation stat while expertise and hit are threat stats. As such, neither item can really be considered "better" than the other (one is a better threat piece- one is a better avoidance piece - both are only OK).

The big issue with these 2 stats is that only 30%ish of your threat is affected by your melee swings. When properly talented, you only have a 3% chance to miss, and 7.50% chance to be dodged or parried. If you increase your hit rate 1% (16 Hit Rating) you are only increasing your total threat output by .3%. You can do much more for your threat with spell damage while giving up much less avoidance.

Expertise is a bit of a different story as it is itemized better (that same 16 reduces your Parry/Dodge chance by more than 2%), so it scales better. However, if you are using Necklace of the Deep as a viable option, you probably dont have the spell damage to make exp outclass pure spell damage.
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Postby Splug » Fri May 23, 2008 2:10 pm

For more information on threat itemization, I'd recommend you look through the guide listed here:
http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... php?t=3678

That should cover the relative impacts of hit, expertise, spellpower, etc toward your threat output. And no, it's not practical to always hit-cap/expertise-cap as a tank. Those are just points to watch for as "beyond this number, you gain no benefit." Hit caps are a minimum for DPS, a maximum for tanks. The minimum tanks need to worry about is 490 defense (or resilience equivalent).

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Postby Fridmarr » Fri May 23, 2008 2:17 pm

Gimorth wrote:Your item-to-item comparision are comparing very difficult to compare stats. Agility is an avoidance/mitigation stat while expertise and hit are threat stats. As such, neither item can really be considered "better" than the other (one is a better threat piece- one is a better avoidance piece - both are only OK).

The big issue with these 2 stats is that only 30%ish of your threat is affected by your melee swings. When properly talented, you only have a 3% chance to miss, and 7.50% chance to be dodged or parried. If you increase your hit rate 1% (16 Hit Rating) you are only increasing your total threat output by .3%. You can do much more for your threat with spell damage while giving up much less avoidance.

Expertise is a bit of a different story as it is itemized better (that same 16 reduces your Parry/Dodge chance by more than 2%), so it scales better. However, if you are using Necklace of the Deep as a viable option, you probably dont have the spell damage to make exp outclass pure spell damage.


Your numbers are a little off for bosses, the base miss is 9% so 6% with precision. The boss parry rate is basically unknown, or variable but it's almost certainly more than 7.50%.

The nice thing about hit though is that it also affects taunt, which any resist of can be quite a pain in the ass. With enough spell damage, point for point, expertise can be pretty comparable to more spell damage for threat output as well.
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Postby Splug » Fri May 23, 2008 2:22 pm

I think Gimroth was giving stats for lv 72 targets, not lv 73's.

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Postby Argali » Fri May 23, 2008 9:07 pm

Oh, don't forget that expertise makes you live longer. No parry haste against you!
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Postby Byzant » Sat May 24, 2008 7:00 am

Hmm, forgive my stupidity but what has expertise got to do with avoidance. I dont get it.
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Postby Kaelie » Sat May 24, 2008 9:40 am

Byzant wrote:Hmm, forgive my stupidity but what has expertise got to do with avoidance. I dont get it.

If something parries your attack (or any attack), there next swing is hasted. Expertise reduces the chance of that.
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Postby roosevelt » Sat May 24, 2008 11:42 am

Using expertise for reduction in parry haste is almost as bad as using agility for threat from white crits.

If you are ever in a situation where you are remotely likely to be vulnerable to dying from parry haste then you should be focusing gearing for survivability.

If you are at a place where you can safely consider switching avoidance for threat then the reduction in parryhaste will probably just mean more overheal and less mana for you.

Its a pleasant thought that we could get threat from a tanking stat like warriors and block value, but bliz seems to be content with handing us spell hit
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