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I hate MgT - QQ thread

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I hate MgT - QQ thread

Postby Mishdorf » Mon May 12, 2008 7:19 pm

I hate MgT with a passion. Why? This is why MgT sucks.

1) My primary reason for hating MgT is that it is impossible to control as a tank. Any other instance you can cover for dps/cc mistakes at least somewhat. In MgT it is impossible. As a tank, I rolled a tank so that I could at least somewhat control how well my team progressed through instances. With MgT I have to put so much faith in dps who learned all their "skills" farming PvP battlegrounds.

2) It requires intelligent dps. DPS, by its very nature is generally not intelligent. They rolled dps to see big numbers and /lol at prot pallys in battlegrounds. Now for people who are in solid guilds with dps that have progressed into some of the 25 man raids, finding decent dps shouldn't be a problem, but for those of us relying on PUGs mostly it is a huge problem.

3) There are far too many caster mobs. Casters are stupidly hard for a paladin to tank, particularly when...

4) LoSing is ridiculously difficult in this instance and in many cases impossible.

5) There is no reason to run N MgT as a tank. By the time you have the gear for it there are no drops for you. Better to waste the 2 hours you will spend doing it on running Heroic Mech/Bot.

6) Heroic mode is impossible until you are well progressed, meaning that there is even less incentive to even get attuned.

7) The third boss is ridiculously poorly designed, particularly for a pally tank. The second boss is stupidly easy to tank and ridiculously hard not to wipe on. See point 2.

8) Why should a dungeon (normal mode MgT), which is more difficult than most heroics not give badges.

In short there is no loot incentive to run the most frustrating instance which plays exactly to our weaknesses and we cannot compensate for by being smarter or working harder than other players.

I realise that this isn't an issue for you 17k/17k tanks (because you're in hardcore raid guilds) but for someone who really wants to see the content and doesn't have a t6 geared guild handy, this really is stupid.
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Postby kensanity » Mon May 12, 2008 7:56 pm

i heavily disagree with most of the statements you've made, although I will agree that gear wise, it is a fairly difficult instance.

My train of thought is that, most heroics, Pally's can generally get away with aoe tanking groups if their gear is above t4 (with a few exceptions per say.)

I think something that mgt does on both heroic and non heroic is make it necessity for dps to play bigger roles than just dealing damage. Having a lock, mage/hunter and rogue make the trash pulls and boss fights in this instance much less difficult.

Dont have two ranged dps? burning down phoenixes on kael is gonna be hard and your one ranged is gonna have to kite that phoenix well.

Dont have a lock for enslave? you better have 3 strong CC classes. Dont have curse of doom? pray taht you have extremely high burst dps on kael or that you have a pally that can just bubble through pyro.

Those would be my main frustrations as a tank regarding the instance as a whole.

However, MGT does give a lot of benefits.

First and foremost, it gives rep, and the exalted shields are extremely good. At least = to t4 gear. Thus, if you aren't into doing dailies, h mgt is a good place to allocate time.
Drop wise, commendation of kael is reason enough to run this instance.

I dont really feel as if the third boss is poorly designed. In fact i think it really requires players to be versatile and concentrate on interrupts and quasi-CC in order to advance.

I must admit, H MgT can be difficult as a heroic and is probably one of the most difficult normal dungeons. BUt look at the loot for all classes. Considering that there are only like 4 possible drops off each boss, in heroic mode that gives you a 25% chance to get the item you are looking for.. .and quite frankly you are looking for those items cuz they are better ilevel than most of the gear you see pre 25 man. at least imo. Thus, the challenge is worth it.

LAstly, and this goes hand in hand with what you said in point 1, MgT DEMANDS that you answer the concerns regarding CC. Its near impossible to aoe tank these mobs with low level gear. THey MUST be CC'ed. and quite frankly you can be smarter and just be the guy who pugs the group. make sure you get a mage that is gonna sheep. make sure u get a lock that is gonna enslave. and make sure you get anohter form of CC.

Lets face it, this instance is pretty difficult and even on heroic difficulty i only see pally tanks going for commendation and maybe the cudgel of consecration (unless they want to offspec into some pretty nice healing stuff). Honestly, I think druids are teh best tanks for this instance given their ability to hold multiple aggro and still avoid breaking CC, (which can be difficult with pally tanks and poorly timed cc)
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Postby Mishdorf » Mon May 12, 2008 8:08 pm

kensanity wrote:i heavily disagree with most of the statements you've made, although I will agree that gear wise, it is a fairly difficult instance.

I think something that mgt does on both heroic and non heroic is make it necessity for dps to play bigger roles than just dealing damage. Having a lock, mage/hunter and rogue make the trash pulls and boss fights in this instance much less difficult.

Dont have two ranged dps? burning down phoenixes on kael is gonna be hard and your one ranged is gonna have to kite that phoenix well.

Dont have a lock for enslave? you better have 3 strong CC classes. Dont have curse of doom? pray taht you have extremely high burst dps on kael or that you have a pally that can just bubble through pyro.

Those would be my main frustrations as a tank regarding the instance as a whole.

However, MGT does give a lot of benefits.

I dont really feel as if the third boss is poorly designed. In fact i think it really requires players to be versatile and concentrate on interrupts and quasi-CC in order to advance.

LAstly, and this goes hand in hand with what you said in point 1, MgT DEMANDS that you answer the concerns regarding CC. Its near impossible to aoe tank these mobs with low level gear. THey MUST be CC'ed. and quite frankly you can be smarter and just be the guy who pugs the group. make sure you get a mage that is gonna sheep. make sure u get a lock that is gonna enslave. and make sure you get anohter form of CC.

Lets face it, this instance is pretty difficult and even on heroic difficulty i only see pally tanks going for commendation and maybe the cudgel of consecration (unless they want to offspec into some pretty nice healing stuff).


So first you say you disagree with my points, which were that this instance is stupid because it puts most of the burden for success onto your dps/cc, then you proceed to say that it in fact does put the burden of success onto your dps/cc. My other point was that in normal mode it does not have gear that is even remotely useful to a tank at the gear level required to do this instance, and that in heroic mode it is far too difficult for a kara or below level tank to do, thus making it a pointless instance until you've been running the big 25man raids.

The commendation is realistically the only item that a pally tank would ever want out of H MgT (though they would take a cudgel drop sometimes). The pvp mace is nearly as good as the cudgel and all the plate drops are crap for tanking.
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Postby kensanity » Mon May 12, 2008 8:15 pm

no i said that i dont agree with many of your posts about the instance. And i dont. the gear is good for all classes, you can be in kara and below gear and tank it, the third boss is easy if you aren't 1 dimensional and think outside the box (as are the other 3).

My tank has instance blues, kara gear and some badge gear. with a little preparation this instance is probably much easier than 90% of the heroics I've done. I can only imagine how easy the other heroics would be if i spent time deciding what type of dps to bring.

its all i'm saying. You dont even have to be honored to get into the heroic version, u just gotta clear it once. Whats the big deal?

have you ever seen some of the other heroic tanking pieces drop in other instances? it is generally harder to achieve (namely suneater). Run h mgt once a day for 7 days, you are gonna see that tanking trinket drop at least once (and, if u set up the party right, which every learning tank should do, you should ahve no problems getting the roll on that trinket as well)
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Postby sweeney » Mon May 12, 2008 10:12 pm

I totally agree that intelligent, or at least not moronic, DPS makes a huge difference in MgT, much more so than other instances. (Mostly on the 2nd-4th bosses.) If you're not guilded and don't have at least 3 competent DPS on your friends list, I feel bad for you, because *every* instance must be painful. I've been in that situation before on a non-tank character and I wouldn't even bother to run instances at all, it's like unnecessary dental surgery at that point. If you're not able to do the necessary networking to meet folks who are competent and also like running instances, it's just going to be rough. If you can change that, you should seriously consider doing so.

However, MgT is literally the easiest place in the world to LOS mobs. There is a corner with a convenient wall segment to block LOS right next to every pull. That's not an exaggeration. When you zone in, see how you have a little niche in the corner to break LOS? Every single area with trash mobs in it is littered with those. The ones where you'd have to run >20 yds to LOS a mob, there are nearby pillars for your convenience.

Oh, and Princess Delrissa is a dream fight for pally tanks, since bringing your healing gear and adding an extra plate healer (who has BOP, a ranged snare, a stun, and Turn Evil) into the mix makes it much, much harder for the AI to focus down your healers. Heck, I throw out weaksauce little Prot-gear heals for Vexallus (under 10% you can bubble and heal since he just sits there and AOEs) and Kael phase 2, too.
Last edited by sweeney on Mon May 12, 2008 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Mishdorf » Mon May 12, 2008 10:18 pm

Sweeney wrote:I totally agree that intelligent, or at least not moronic, DPS makes a huge difference in MgT, much more so than other instances. (Mostly on the 2nd-4th bosses.)

However, it's like the easiest place in the world to LOS mobs. There is literally a corner with a convenient wall segment to block LOS right next to every pull. That's not an exaggeration.

Oh, and Princess Delrissa is a dream fight, since bringing your healing gear and throwing an extra plate healer (who has BOP, a ranged snare, a stun, and Turn Evil) into the mix makes it much, much harder for the AI to focus down your healers.


I'll have to remember to strap on healing gear next time I run the instance.

The place that has the real LOS issues is at the start of the instance with the 2 5-6 packs on the bridge that can't be LOSed.

The 2nd boss is the one that annoys me the most, because most dps are too stupid to even focus on the adds, let alone rotate their kills on them, even when you explain it to them.
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Postby sweeney » Mon May 12, 2008 10:24 pm

Mishdorf wrote:The place that has the real LOS issues is at the start of the instance with the 2 5-6 packs on the bridge that can't be LOSed.

The 2nd boss is the one that annoys me the most, because most dps are too stupid to even focus on the adds, let alone rotate their kills on them, even when you explain it to them.


When you zone in and look at the 2 Mage Guards, they're standing in a wide doorway. Like this:

Code: Select all
---- MG MG ----
| X            |
|              |


After you clear them, you wait for the pat to come close to the doorway, throw your shield, and then step sideways to the X until there's wall between you and them.

For the 5 packs just after, you throw your shield at them, drop a Consc on the way back to that X, the corner you were standing in, and wait for them to all clump up in the corner with you.

If you've been fighting the packs where they stand, oh man you've had a rough time. If your DPSers are too stupid to stay in the previous room after you tell them "Okay stay there, i'll pull the mobs back", then you let them die and/or kick them.

If your DPS is terrible on Vexallus, no, you're not getting him down on Heroic. That's why it's a pretty good idea to keep an eye out for signs of impending dumbness and get the group sorted before you kill Selin. If your healers awesome, you can try picking up the adds yourself, but it'll hurt a lot.

Honestly, I'd recommend you look for videos of people running Heroic MgT; everyone pulls and LOSes those packs the same way, using corners, so you should easily be able to find one (at which point you may go "Aha!" because it's really simple if you can just see it). I don't think there's a single trash pack that requires you to run more than 40-50yds to LOS it.
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Re: I hate MgT - QQ thread

Postby ldeboer » Tue May 13, 2008 1:12 am

Mishdorf wrote:I hate MgT with a passion. Why? This is why MgT sucks.

1) My primary reason for hating MgT is that it is impossible to control as a tank. Any other instance you can cover for dps/cc mistakes at least somewhat. In MgT it is impossible. As a tank, I rolled a tank so that I could at least somewhat control how well my team progressed through instances. With MgT I have to put so much faith in dps who learned all their "skills" farming PvP battlegrounds.

2) It requires intelligent dps. DPS, by its very nature is generally not intelligent. They rolled dps to see big numbers and /lol at prot pallys in battlegrounds. Now for people who are in solid guilds with dps that have progressed into some of the 25 man raids, finding decent dps shouldn't be a problem, but for those of us relying on PUGs mostly it is a huge problem.

3) There are far too many caster mobs. Casters are stupidly hard for a paladin to tank, particularly when...

4) LoSing is ridiculously difficult in this instance and in many cases impossible.

5) There is no reason to run N MgT as a tank. By the time you have the gear for it there are no drops for you. Better to waste the 2 hours you will spend doing it on running Heroic Mech/Bot.

6) Heroic mode is impossible until you are well progressed, meaning that there is even less incentive to even get attuned.

7) The third boss is ridiculously poorly designed, particularly for a pally tank. The second boss is stupidly easy to tank and ridiculously hard not to wipe on. See point 2.

8) Why should a dungeon (normal mode MgT), which is more difficult than most heroics not give badges.

In short there is no loot incentive to run the most frustrating instance which plays exactly to our weaknesses and we cannot compensate for by being smarter or working harder than other players.

I realise that this isn't an issue for you 17k/17k tanks (because you're in hardcore raid guilds) but for someone who really wants to see the content and doesn't have a t6 geared guild handy, this really is stupid.


What can we say you fail the "I can tank test" stop QQ'ing and go and learn to be a tank.

Point 1.) You are the one marking so ultimately how much you trust what cc is in your hands.

Point 2.) All the DPS has to do is kill the targets in the marked order.

Point 3.) Casters are hard for any tank class what is special about being a pally. What warriors and druids come with a you cant cast at me button.

Point 4.) Dont make stupid statements. LOS is easy and worst case hit them and run far enuf and they have to follow because of range. As long as no one in your grp does any healing or damage they will chase you.

Point 5.) And what exactly is the point of doing H-Bot and H-Mech not like there is any gear there either.

Point 6.) Heroic mode is no more difficult that H-SV, H-slabs or H-BM.

Point 7.) There is no tanking required it's like shade of aran in Kara no control = no tank so put your healing gear on and just do 1st pull in healing gear. What you think its easier for Druid or Warrior and they can magically control them.

Point 8.) Prob your only valid point no badges but best stam trinket in the game off 3rd boss. H-MgT is no more difficult than the harder heroics.

This is a great instance which really improves your tanking if you really hate and can't do it you aren't ever going to make a good tank roll Ret or healer or just run as a raid Off tank on trash.
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Postby antiy4ho0 » Tue May 13, 2008 1:35 am

OP: I agree with you to some extent.

Mostly that I feel MgT is more about smart DPS than a competent tank + healer. A good tank+healer can get you through most instances no problem, especially being a prot pally. I think a lot of us are used to just saying **** it I'll tank everything if this hunter can't trap. Or if its not sheeped by the time its in my consecration I'll just tank it. We're just used to being able to easily do that and its hard when 80% of the mobs are casters and its really tough to just consecrate and hold them all when they hit hard with 0 mitigation.

I know personally I always want at least 2 CC for Heroic MgT, and at least one Warlock. I also know that I don't want to pug anyone in my Heroic MgT runs. They're either coming off my friends list/guild or not coming at all. I don't worry about CC for any other instance, but heroic MgT makes me feel like I have to go into warrior mode and it kind of sucks :P

With all that said, I really don't like the place. I've ran it like 5 times when I was farming for my Commendation. I got it, haven't been back since. I wouldn't mind getting the Cudgel, because I'm still using the Continuum blade, but I would rather wait for ZA resets and try to get the amani punisher than go through MgT. (Also FYI Kael drops epics in normal mode, no other normal mode instance boss drops epics)
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Postby Bluezooadin » Tue May 13, 2008 3:21 am

I've found several places to LoS inside MgT. Which my first 70 being a hunter maybe I understand and know where to find spots to do it as well.

Make sure you tell your group your going to LoS, sometimes it's a long pull. There's only one or two spots I can think off that is no LoS. Make sure to kill the casters first. It's what I do :P
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Re: I hate MgT - QQ thread

Postby Mishdorf » Tue May 13, 2008 6:46 am

ldeboer wrote:What can we say you fail the "I can tank test" stop QQ'ing and go and learn to be a tank.


If I wasn't a good tank I wouldn't have t5/t6 dps/healers pst me all the time for heroic runs, even though I'm not even full on kara gear yet.

Point 1.) You are the one marking so ultimately how much you trust what cc is in your hands.

Point 2.) All the DPS has to do is kill the targets in the marked order.


Not all fights can be marked (2nd boss in particular) and not all dps is quick enough or smart enough to follow orders.


Point 3.) Casters are hard for any tank class what is special about being a pally. What warriors and druids come with a you cant cast at me button.


Druids have more HP and warriors have spell reflect. We have, ummm, spell warding...

Point 4.) Dont make stupid statements. LOS is easy and worst case hit them and run far enuf and they have to follow because of range. As long as no one in your grp does any healing or damage they will chase you.


Granted, this was probably my weakest point, but I was mostly refering to those few pulls at the start of the instance where you have to run a LOOOONG way to LOS them.

Point 5.) And what exactly is the point of doing H-Bot and H-Mech not like there is any gear there either.


I can do H Mech in around 40 mins if the dps is decently geared and the healer has at least 1500-1600 +heal. 4 badges in 40 mins = 1 badge/10 min. Every time I've run MgT it's taken well over an hour, closer to an hour and a half.

Point 6.) Heroic mode is no more difficult that H-SV, H-slabs or H-BM.


Heroic SV is cake. The others I don't have much experience with (mainly due to noone wanting to run them) so I can't comment.

Point 7.) There is no tanking required it's like shade of aran in Kara no control = no tank so put your healing gear on and just do 1st pull in healing gear. What you think its easier for Druid or Warrior and they can magically control them.


Druids and warriors are more able to dps than prot pallys. Granted though, healing this is not an option I'd thought of before this thread.

Point 8.) Prob your only valid point no badges but best stam trinket in the game off 3rd boss. H-MgT is no more difficult than the harder heroics.

This is a great instance which really improves your tanking if you really hate and can't do it you aren't ever going to make a good tank roll Ret or healer or just run as a raid Off tank on trash.


So just because I express disgust at Bliz making an instance which actually reduces heavily the role of a tank (yay for untankable bosses), that means I'm a terrible tank. Riiiiiiight. I've been successfully tanking instances since RFC and recently raid bosses that I've never seen before or have only seen once before (I tanked Nightbane without any wipes the second time I was in Kara). Sure I'm not t6 geared, but that's more to do with time spent in the game rather than skill...

So again, I will state that I hate this instance (though the mana wyrms bit is fun), mainly because my skill as a tank cannot compensate for poorly skilled dps.
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Postby Lore » Tue May 13, 2008 6:53 am

I'm closing this thread before it gets even more out of hand.
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