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5 mans - Omen and Aggro -

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5 mans - Omen and Aggro -

Postby Hierax » Fri May 02, 2008 9:43 am

Very small casual guild. Mainly one grp things -

Lately - I've been having issues giving up aggro to a hunter and mage combo who seem to laugh at getting threat - which in a 5 man is just fine - but in a heroic - will mean death perhaps wipe.

Omen clearly showed a threat lead for myself - I was sitting around 27k vs next person around 13k. This is omen showing accumulated threat....13k person gets aggro - maybe spiking to 17k ? How exactly ...does that happen ? Or are there threat inducing abilities the mage and hunter are using to deliberately try and draw aggro. Personally it's making me insane because I need to save Righteous def. for my healers...

For a 5 man I sit around 330-375 spell dmg, I'm in beginning kara/heroic gear - craftables + SSO + 5 man drops. Hunter has some pvp gear, mage has 5-man drops and some crafted.

Does omen not truly represent threat ? I never have an issue with PuGs. Everytime it happens I get "I guess I critted". I also play a hunter - and if I see my threat getting close - I back off - but at least that's expected at that point.

This is frustrating - I expect a hiccup perhaps on a trash pull if they open up too early - but other than that - if they wait on a shield/consecrate....../ug
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Postby Kelaan » Fri May 02, 2008 10:35 am

Salv your mage and hunter, and tell the hunter to actually use his FD button. If the mage keeps pulling aggro.... bless him with KINGS, and then let him die until he learns to control his threat. ;) (Wow, that's somewhat mean... but seriously, heroics will 2-shot nearly any DPS class.)
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Postby Cosmoz » Fri May 02, 2008 10:42 am

there are mobs with random agro change, no mather what you do. bosses as well.
mages should always have salv, hunter should never have it. If the hunter gets agro, tell him to L2P. they have feign, and much more important, they have Missdirect. if they dont use any of those skills, they are prolly only playing pvp, and never raided anything.
In pugs, I always give hunters salv, becaus, sadly, 95% of all hunters dont know how to handle threat. they rather take agro and may cause a wipe.
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Postby Robin de tolens » Fri May 02, 2008 11:04 am

Maybe there was 2+ mobs with the same name and so it didn't show your threat on your actual target. I think this issue has been fixed a while ago but... never know ;)
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Postby Laikar » Fri May 02, 2008 2:10 pm

If anyone laughs at pulling agro, let them die.. if they keep doing it, kick them from the group, if they start making your guild look bad, kick them from the guild.

All tanks should have a zero tolerance policy for DPS that don't play by their rules, which means adjusting their threat to the output of the Tank, not whining that the tank can't hold aggro, or joking about it when the only goal of an instance is to complete it.
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Postby Robin de tolens » Fri May 02, 2008 2:24 pm

Laikar wrote:If anyone laughs at pulling agro, let them die.. if they keep doing it, kick them from the group, if they start making your guild look bad, kick them from the guild.

All tanks should have a zero tolerance policy for DPS that don't play by their rules, which means adjusting their threat to the output of the Tank, not whining that the tank can't hold aggro, or joking about it when the only goal of an instance is to complete it.


True, but that was not the point of the thread ^^
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Postby Kelaan » Fri May 02, 2008 2:55 pm

True. If omen is acting up, then it can be difficult to guage threat. Make sure you have a recent version, and they do to ... ?

or ask them to just thtottle it back a bit. Clueful DPS should be able to do that even without a damage meter. Suboptimal DPS without pulling aggro is often better than pulling aggro and dying. ;)
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Re: 5 mans - Omen and Aggro -

Postby ldeboer » Sat May 03, 2008 2:55 am

Hierax wrote:Very small casual guild. Mainly one grp things -

Lately - I've been having issues giving up aggro to a hunter and mage combo who seem to laugh at getting threat - which in a 5 man is just fine - but in a heroic - will mean death perhaps wipe.

Omen clearly showed a threat lead for myself - I was sitting around 27k vs next person around 13k. This is omen showing accumulated threat....13k person gets aggro - maybe spiking to 17k ? How exactly ...does that happen ? Or are there threat inducing abilities the mage and hunter are using to deliberately try and draw aggro. Personally it's making me insane because I need to save Righteous def. for my healers...

For a 5 man I sit around 330-375 spell dmg, I'm in beginning kara/heroic gear - craftables + SSO + 5 man drops. Hunter has some pvp gear, mage has 5-man drops and some crafted.

Does omen not truly represent threat ? I never have an issue with PuGs. Everytime it happens I get "I guess I critted". I also play a hunter - and if I see my threat getting close - I back off - but at least that's expected at that point.

This is frustrating - I expect a hiccup perhaps on a trash pull if they open up too early - but other than that - if they wait on a shield/consecrate....../ug


Omen playing up or not mage and hunters have complete agro wipes if they die from continually pulling agro let them die they are retards.

I would be particually hard on the hunter if he mis directs to you at start of pulls he can generate enormous threat for you while going all out.

So the question I have do you feel these guys are retards or is there a problem.

From your point all you can do to increase threat is to increase spell damage but 272 if you loaded oil up should be fine.

I am going to ask it ... plz dont bite me just making sure ... you have RF up right?

If you got all that done the problem has to be with them .. let them die
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Postby Minn » Sat May 03, 2008 5:10 am

You can do a version check in Omen, I've seen some weird things happening when raid members are running different ones. (tank with 20k threat lead, I get 3 non-crit nukes in a row on my lock and... pull aggro 10k under??)

I have 2 different approaches, depending on groupmates and their ability to watch threat. If they're good, AS->JoW->SoR, and I put JoW up on every mob I get to with > 50% life left. If they're aggro-whores, we drink to full, AS->Consecrate(Max)->JoR->SoR-> and use every Judgement refresh for JoR. With a hunter though, definitely make sure he's giving you the benefit of Misdirect whenever it is up.
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Postby Lookit » Mon May 05, 2008 9:52 am

Would you mind mentioning what instance/mobs this was happening on? There are several mobs in Shattered Halls for example that will randomly charge someone else in the group if they are too far away, perhaps making them think they "grabbed aggro."
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Postby Hierax » Mon May 05, 2008 12:13 pm

we are 'sort of' off track on the original question - i was more doubting Omen than anything else - of which - one person - the Mage - did have a much older version than mine.

The instance in question was Arc - trash pulls - but Omen said I was clearly ahead.

These are good friends - Hunter misdirects all the time on initial pulls - 2,3 4th + mobs there is no issue due to consecrate and reflective dmg. I did finish the dang grind for the S1 gavel so that's gonna up my threat so I hope to not see this again. 5 mans I'm around 415 now (more than enough IMO) and Heroics/Kara 300ish (again >enough based upon research here) with uncrush and I hope enough AC/health

I had mana issues a bit in my initial heroic , as well as 5 mans - and this happens usually....3-5 secs into an initial trash pull - so maybe my upfront threat isn't great - but I have asked to have folks wait a couple secs for a shield, a consecrate - and to then go to town.

I just didn't like the aggro pull - given that Omen showed me with the lead by a wide margin - and I don't want the mana pressure of me virtually spamming JoR/SoR or Cons. w/o any regard.

Anyway - I've read in another thread about some Omen irregularities.....I hope to run some co-op tests at some point this week to pin-point the issue.

The data point in the back of my head however is this, I've been in PuG's that kill faster - but draw less/no aggro....which creates this quandry in my head that I need to get to the bottom of - Omen bugs not withstanding
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Postby ldeboer » Mon May 05, 2008 6:51 pm

Hierax wrote:I had mana issues a bit in my initial heroic , as well as 5 mans - and this happens usually....3-5 secs into an initial trash pull - so maybe my upfront threat isn't great - but I have asked to have folks wait a couple secs for a shield, a consecrate - and to then go to town.

I just didn't like the aggro pull - given that Omen showed me with the lead by a wide margin - and I don't want the mana pressure of me virtually spamming JoR/SoR or Cons. w/o any regard.


Mana issues 3-5 secs into a pull whats your mana pool?

Not following the right balance of gear you should be able to spam consecrate continually so long as healer is healing you to make mana back.
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Postby bladeangel » Tue May 06, 2008 5:21 am

Hierax wrote:The instance in question was Arc - trash pulls - but Omen said I was clearly ahead.


I noticed that the Arcatraz Sentinel mobs in Arca don't follow normal threat rules, well not according to the Omen display at least.

My group noticed also and we tried having the whole party stay in almost melee-range on these mobs - result was that the mobs didn't switch aggro randomly at all.

You should have no problem holding aggro in Arca since most mobs are Demons and an AS+Exorcism pull will make them stick to you.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue May 06, 2008 5:45 am

Arc robots have shitty aggro tables...they're stable for a while and then they just become random(I think they randomly add threat to other people). I just do a high threat move(Wings-shield-judge?) and if I lose them again, stun.

Arc is one of the least forgiving instances on aggro...pull and you die. Everything hits like trucks compared to other heroic mobs,
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Postby Marker » Tue May 06, 2008 6:55 am

Wowhead claims an approx 10 sec interval for aggro dump against tank (or whoever is topping the threatmeter) and running for the second on threat...
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